RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure Role

Thank you.

In the real world of publishing in which I work and publish thousands of images annually, <figcaption> (and <caption>) is exclusively for captions (legends, whatever term we'd like to use). It might be different on a web site that does not have a need for captioned content, but if we look at materials with actual captions, I suspect we'll see them in use as intended.

I could provide hundreds of examples today.

Here is one from a professional technology book:
<figure>
<img class="center" src="images/c07f001.jpg" alt="Screenshot of user interface presenting sequence of launching measurement commands: (1) InfraWorks Core icon, (2) Analyze toolbar, (3) Point-to-Point Distance and Path Distance commands."/>
<figcaption>
<p><a id="c07-fig-0001" href="#c07-fig-anc-0001">Figure 7.1</a>You can launch the measurement commands by clicking the icons in the order shown.</p>
</figcaption>
</figure>

The fact the tumblr and friends are using <div>s when they could be using <figcaption> should not make books and journals more difficult to navigate (or produce).

Thanks,
Tzviya

Tzviya Siegman
Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 9:54 AM
To: 'Richard Schwerdtfeger'
Cc: public-pfwg@w3.org; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; 'Steve Faulkner'
Subject: RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure Role

Hi Rich,

Tzviya's world (and digital publishing's) is real too.

Once upon a time in "the real world", tables were used for layout without anyone questioning that, so I reject the idea that just because things are being done incompletely or incorrectly across large swaths of the internet today that we need to accept that as "the real world".

I don't get to decide here, but I am not a huge fan of dismissing real needs and real use-cases on behalf of expediency, and as recently as this weekend I was reviewing actual content from an educational publisher who had both captions and long descriptions on their complex graphics. I'm not sure what Steve looked at, but a representative sampling may not have caught enough of the edge (but substantial edge) case here.

JF



From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:44 AM
To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>>
Cc: public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>; 'Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken' <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
Subject: RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure Role


John,

I hear what you are saying but that is not how they are used in the real world. Steve looked into it.

We used to have a labelledby relationship and Steve asked me to change it. I suggest you both speak with Steve as he had to deal with it in HTML5.

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger

[Inactive hide details for "John Foliot" ---11/30/2015 08:40:47 AM---+1]"John Foliot" ---11/30/2015 08:40:47 AM---+1

From: "John Foliot" <john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>>
To: "'Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken'" <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>, Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, <public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
Date: 11/30/2015 08:40 AM
Subject: RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure  Role

________________________________



+1

Captions are not long descriptions, and long descriptions are not captions: different content, often different audience member.

JF


From: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken [mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:35 AM
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com<mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>>; public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure Role

Hi Rich,

I understand that this question is regarding a specialized case (multiple images in one <figure> element). Please realize that the described scenario is very common in publishing. Further, publishing almost never uses <figcaption> in lieu of descriptions. Rather, we use it to caption images in publications. We have textbooks, journals, magazines, etc. with hundreds of captioned images that need both descriptions and captions. It is important to be able to provide both without confusion.

Tzviya

Tzviya Siegman
Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:45 PM
To: public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure Role


Hi Jason,

This is in response to this post from you: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Oct/0025.html and my action item 1734.

I spoke with Steve Faulkner and he stated captions were more being used as descriptions and not basic captions. Consequently He had asked that a reference to a caption be a reference to a description and by default this meant an aria-describedby mapping to the long description. In HTML Steve was going to map <caption> through an aria-describedby relationship.

... Note: we are talking about extended descriptions in which case we would not want the results to be stringified and I think we can address this by placing a new type of extended Role attribute on the caption area.

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger