RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure Role

Hi Rich,

 

Tzviya's world (and digital publishing's) is real too.

 

Once upon a time in "the real world", tables were used for layout without
anyone questioning that, so I reject the idea that just because things are
being done incompletely or incorrectly across large swaths of the internet
today that we need to accept that as "the real world".

 

I don't get to decide here, but I am not a huge fan of dismissing real needs
and real use-cases on behalf of expediency, and as recently as this weekend
I was reviewing actual content from an educational publisher who had both
captions and long descriptions on their complex graphics. I'm not sure what
Steve looked at, but a representative sampling may not have caught enough of
the edge (but substantial edge) case here.

 

JF

 

 

 

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:44 AM
To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
Cc: public-pfwg@w3.org; 'Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken' <tsiegman@wiley.com>
Subject: RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure
Role

 

John, 

I hear what you are saying but that is not how they are used in the real
world. Steve looked into it. 

We used to have a labelledby relationship and Steve asked me to change it. I
suggest you both speak with Steve as he had to deal with it in HTML5. 

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger

"John Foliot" ---11/30/2015 08:40:47 AM---+1

From: "John Foliot" <john.foliot@deque.com <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com> >
To: "'Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken'" <tsiegman@wiley.com
<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com> >, Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
<public-pfwg@w3.org <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org> >
Date: 11/30/2015 08:40 AM
Subject: RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure
Role

  _____  




+1
 
Captions are not long descriptions, and long descriptions are not captions:
different content, often different audience member.
 
JF
 
 
From: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken [mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:35 AM
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com> >;
public-pfwg@w3.org <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org> 
Subject: RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure
Role
 
Hi Rich,
 
I understand that this question is regarding a specialized case (multiple
images in one <figure> element). Please realize that the described scenario
is very common in publishing. Further, publishing almost never uses
<figcaption> in lieu of descriptions. Rather, we use it to caption images in
publications. We have textbooks, journals, magazines, etc. with hundreds of
captioned images that need both descriptions and captions. It is important
to be able to provide both without confusion. 
 
Tzviya
 
Tzviya Siegman
Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884
 <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com> tsiegman@wiley.com 
 
From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [ <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>
mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:45 PM
To:  <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org> public-pfwg@w3.org
Subject: Re: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure
Role
  

Hi Jason, 

This is in response to this post from you:
<https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Oct/0025.html>
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Oct/0025.html and my
action item 1734.

I spoke with Steve Faulkner and he stated captions were more being used as
descriptions and not basic captions. Consequently He had asked that a
reference to a caption be a reference to a description and by default this
meant an aria-describedby mapping to the long description. In HTML Steve was
going to map <caption> through an aria-describedby relationship. 

... Note: we are talking about extended descriptions in which case we would
not want the results to be stringified and I think we can address this by
placing a new type of extended Role attribute on the caption area. 

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger