Re: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure Role

Hi all,
first off I would like to clarify, the original issu raised in regards to
the current mapping of a labbelledby relationship between figure and
figcaption is:

Using figcaption content as an accessible name for the figure element can
lead to usuability issues for screen redaer users. Why?
take the example provided:


<figure>
<img class="center" src="images/c07f001.jpg" alt="Screenshot of user
interface presenting sequence of launching measurement commands: (1)
InfraWorks Core icon, (2) Analyze toolbar, (3) Point-to-Point Distance and
Path Distance commands."/>
<figcaption>
<p><a id="c07-fig-0001" href="#c07-fig-anc-0001">Figure 7.1</a>You can
launch the measurement commands by clicking the icons in the order shown.
</p>
</figcaption>
</figure>

this Results in the following aural output:

"group, Figure 7.1 You can launch the measurement commands by clicking the
icons in the order shown.
graphic, Screenshot of user interface presenting sequence of launching
measurement commands: (1) InfraWorks Core icon, (2) Analyze toolbar, (3)
Point-to-Point Distance and Path Distance commands.
Figure 7.1 You can launch the measurement commands by clicking the icons in
the order shown."

Note the repetitiion of the figcaption text

This repetition is amplified when we take examples from popular web sites

<figure id="img-1">
<img alt="Marlon James, the Jamaican novelist, has won the 2015 Man Booker
Prize for Fiction for &quot;A Brief History of Seven Killings,&quot; his
fictional retelling of the 1976 attempted murder of Bob Marley. Photograph
by Felix Clay">
<figcaption>
Sole rebel? Jamaican novelist Marlon James, whose fictional retelling of
the 1976 attempted murder of Bob Marley, A Brief History of Seven Killings,
won this year’s Man Booker prize for fiction.
Photograph: Felix Clay for the Guardian
</figcaption>
</figure>

output:
"group, Sole rebel? Jamaican novelist Marlon James, whose fictional
retelling of the 1976 attempted murder of Bob Marley, A Brief History of
Seven Killings, won this year’s Man Booker prize for fiction.
Photograph: Felix Clay for the Guardian
graphic, Marlon James, the Jamaican novelist, has won the 2015 Man Booker
Prize for Fiction for &quot;A Brief History of Seven Killings,&quot; his
fictional retelling of the 1976 attempted murder of Bob Marley. Photograph
by Felix Clay
Sole rebel? Jamaican novelist Marlon James, whose fictional retelling of
the 1976 attempted murder of Bob Marley, A Brief History of Seven Killings,
won this year’s Man Booker prize for fiction.
Photograph: Felix Clay for the Guardian"

from
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/nov/30/marlon-james-writers-of-colour-pander-white-woman-man-booker-event-brief-history-seven-killings

or this

<figure>
      <img itemprop="contentUrl" src="
http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_large/public/thumbnails/image/2015/11/10/16/Crickhowell.jpg"
alt="" height="1026" width="1368">
<figcaption itemprop="description" class="caption">
          The town centre of Crickhowell, located within the Brecon Beacons
<span class="copyright">Alamy</span>        </figcaption>
          </figure>

from
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crickhowell-welsh-town-moves-offshore-to-avoid-tax-on-local-business-a6728971.html

output:
"group, The town centre of Crickhowell, located within the Brecon Beacons
Alamy
The town centre of Crickhowell, located within the Brecon Beacons Alamay"

note the repetition of the figcaption text

It is for this reason that I suggested the mapping be changed from
labelledby to describedby, so as to avoid almost constant repetition of the
figcaption content being announced to users (as reported), as a description
is not automatically reported on a group role.

My own preferred resolution was to decouple the relationship between the
accname for figure and figcaption and instead introduce a role of caption
so that figcaption content could be identified as just that, a caption.






--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>

On 30 November 2015 at 15:09, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com>
wrote:

> Thank you.
>
>
>
> In the real world of publishing in which I work and publish thousands of
> images annually, <figcaption> (and <caption>) is exclusively for captions
> (legends, whatever term we’d like to use). It might be different on a web
> site that does not have a need for captioned content, but if we look at
> materials with actual captions, I suspect we’ll see them in use as intended.
>
>
>
> I could provide hundreds of examples today.
>
>
>
> Here is one from a professional technology book:
>
> <figure>
> <img class="center" src="images/c07f001.jpg" alt="Screenshot of user
> interface presenting sequence of launching measurement commands: (1)
> InfraWorks Core icon, (2) Analyze toolbar, (3) Point-to-Point Distance and
> Path Distance commands."/>
> <figcaption>
> <p><a id="c07-fig-0001" href="#c07-fig-anc-0001">Figure 7.1</a>You can
> launch the measurement commands by clicking the icons in the order shown.
> </p>
> </figcaption>
>
> </figure>
>
>
>
> The fact the tumblr and friends are using <div>s when they could be using
> <figcaption> should not make books and journals more difficult to navigate
> (or produce).
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tzviya
>
>
>
> *Tzviya Siegman*
>
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
>
> Wiley
>
> 201-748-6884
>
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2015 9:54 AM
> *To:* 'Richard Schwerdtfeger'
> *Cc:* public-pfwg@w3.org; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; 'Steve Faulkner'
>
> *Subject:* RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a
> Figure Role
>
>
>
> Hi Rich,
>
>
>
> Tzviya’s world (and digital publishing’s) is real too.
>
>
>
> Once upon a time in “the real world”, tables were used for layout without
> anyone questioning that, so I reject the idea that just because things are
> being done incompletely or incorrectly across large swaths of the internet
> today that we need to accept that as “the real world”.
>
>
>
> I don’t get to decide here, but I am not a huge fan of dismissing real
> needs and real use-cases on behalf of expediency, and as recently as this
> weekend I was reviewing actual content from an educational publisher who
> had both captions and long descriptions on their complex graphics. I’m not
> sure what Steve looked at, but a representative sampling may not have
> caught enough of the edge (but substantial edge) case here.
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com
> <schwer@us.ibm.com>]
> *Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2015 8:44 AM
> *To:* John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
> *Cc:* public-pfwg@w3.org; 'Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken' <tsiegman@wiley.com>
> *Subject:* RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a
> Figure Role
>
>
>
> John,
>
> I hear what you are saying but that is not how they are used in the real
> world. Steve looked into it.
>
> We used to have a labelledby relationship and Steve asked me to change it.
> I suggest you both speak with Steve as he had to deal with it in HTML5.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for "John Foliot" ---11/30/2015 08:40:47
> AM---+1]"John Foliot" ---11/30/2015 08:40:47 AM---+1
>
> From: "John Foliot" <john.foliot@deque.com>
> To: "'Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken'" <tsiegman@wiley.com>, Richard
> Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, <public-pfwg@w3.org>
> Date: 11/30/2015 08:40 AM
> Subject: RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a Figure
>  Role
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> +1
>
> Captions are not long descriptions, and long descriptions are not
> captions: different content, often different audience member.
>
> JF
>
>
> *From:* Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken [mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com
> <tsiegman@wiley.com>]
> * Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2015 8:35 AM
> * To:* Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>; public-pfwg@w3.org
> * Subject:* RE: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a
> Figure Role
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> I understand that this question is regarding a specialized case (multiple
> images in one <figure> element). Please realize that the described scenario
> is very common in publishing. Further, publishing almost never uses
> <figcaption> in lieu of descriptions. Rather, we use it to caption images
> in publications. We have textbooks, journals, magazines, etc. with hundreds
> of captioned images that need both descriptions and captions. It is
> important to be able to provide both without confusion.
>
> Tzviya
>
> *Tzviya Siegman*
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
> *From:* Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com
> <schwer@us.ibm.com>]
> * Sent:* Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:45 PM
> * To:* public-pfwg@w3.org
> * Subject:* Re: Action-1734, Action-1708, Action-1709: Proposal for a
> Figure Role
>
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> This is in response to this post from you:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Oct/0025.html and my
> action item 1734.
>
> I spoke with Steve Faulkner and he stated captions were more being used as
> descriptions and not basic captions. Consequently He had asked that a
> reference to a caption be a reference to a description and by default this
> meant an aria-describedby mapping to the long description. In HTML Steve
> was going to map <caption> through an aria-describedby relationship.
>
> ... Note: we are talking about extended descriptions in which case we
> would not want the results to be stringified and I think we can address
> this by placing a new type of extended Role attribute on the caption area.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>