- From: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 14:08:13 -0400
- To: PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <551D858D.2030404@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 02 Apr 2015 Agenda <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0244.html> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-irc> Attendees Present Michael_Cooper, Janina, Stefan_Schnabel, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Nurthen, Cynthia_Shelly, Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson Regrets Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Matt_King Chair Michael_Cooper Scribe Stefan Contents * Topics <http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html#agenda> 1. Action 1349 Patch issue-561 <http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html#item01> 2. Review Table Branch (Actions 1395, 1293, 1403; issue 423) <http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html#item02> * Summary of Action Items <http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html#ActionSummary> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ <trackbot> Date: 02 April 2015 <clown> action-1349 <trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349 <scribe> Scribe: Stefan Action 1349 Patch issue-561 <MichaelC> action-1349? <trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349 MichaelC: placeholder topic <MichaelC> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1349/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder MC: Joanie created branch containing draft ... open questions? Joseph: my comment was about focus issue <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jan/0071.html <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0049.html Joanie: still looking for some background ... going through history MC: most of review has happened Joanie: I need more feedback ... I actively ask for review MC: ok feedback until next thursday *RESOLUTION: joannie: merges branch if no more feedback by next week* MC: anything else? Review Table Branch (Actions 1395, 1293, 1403; issue 423) <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0132.html MC: ok going to table branch <MichaelC> rawgit.com/w3c/aria/tables/aria/aria.html <MichaelC> colcount, colindex, colspan, rowcount, rowindex, rowspan MC: clarify aria-rowcount=-1 <MichaelC> proposed: If the total number of rows is unknown, authors SHOULD set the value of aria-rowcount to -1 to indicate that should not be calculated by the user agent. <MichaelC> proposed: If the total number of rows is unknown, authors SHOULD set the value of aria-rowcount to -1 to indicate that the value should not be calculated by the user agent. MC: second one is proposal ... we don't have a solid decision should vs. must ... I lean towards must ... do we have consensus on wording change? Joanie: add 1.1. on table properties ... (and other things) ... why rowcount/colcount are not limited to table itsself? <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-aria-minutes#item01 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-aria-minutes#item03 Bryan: ? Colcount can change on row basis MC: we discussed issues 2 weeks ago - check the minutes <asurkov> just in case, I’m in the chat but not on the phone <joanie> asurkov: We don't seem to know why rowcount and colcount might need to be on a descendant element. :) Bryan: Rich said it should be on row also, I think <asurkov> joanie: cool! <joanie> asurkov: As I recall, Rich was the one who knows and he's not here. <asurkov> I think aria-rowcount not on the table is extra headache for implementators <asurkov> and it’s not clear how to handle collisions Cynthia: is walking up hierarchy inpossible? JN: you end in a mess when DOM is complicated Cynthia: we need a resolution that it must be on the table element MC: fair thing would to be call out in review request Cynthia: send email to rich and talk with him missed that joanie: html caption examples - ccaption is not label, screen readers will have issues with long captions spilling out everything <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-caption Cynthia: potential issue here - woth considering <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation Cynthia: it has been in IE forever, FF copied it ... maybe use case is not so common joanie: we want to be parallel to html, for me a caption is pretty much a label for a table Cynthia: no caption is not a label gives up to recognize voices :) MC: aria-describedby on table works fine LJWAtson agrees with Cynthia about caption-label caption=label <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation Cynthia: summary is supposed to be long Joseph: summary is the 5th coice jamesn: caption is accessible description for table? or accessible name? there is a clear hierarcy defined in http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation <asurkov> caption is name MC: my inclanation is to leave caption in for now ... caption is fairly well widely used <asurkov> I would suggest to take undisputable stuff only into the spec and leave all disuptable stuff for later, that could dealiver better progress MC: that's probaby all for caption for now ... how is gridcell different from cell? LJWatson: one is a control and one is not Cynthia; grids are spreadsheets and interactive things - we think that too LJWatson: grids are different on platform level ... ... grids map currently to table -- but if it interactive they map to grid MC: vacation for separate roles on mapping level ... better to use roles instead of relying on heuristics LJWatson: good point having use cases for different roles joanie: if it makes difference for cells it probably also makes difference for rows <LJWatson> +1 MC: grids can contain rows or gridrows for backward compatibility ... mplementers have to recognize different cases joanie: how to distinguish interactive from non-interactive rows Cynthia: not sure about table cells ... we are talking about differnt aria role for row <jamesn> I think it will add confusion Joseph: some rows in grid aren't interactive, some are does that cause a problem now joanie: it is a serious question, we should have specific roles for non-interactive tables Cynthia: people wanted to convert div soup into tables using ARIA thhis was the reason joanie: why do we want to do this? e.g. SVG tables .. they mabe map to aria grids but they are not interactive ... there is a camp: SVG is about images and not tables, you can import HTML but User Agents dont support it ... people doing tables using text markup - don't do that ... in SVG <joanie> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6987005/create-a-table-in-svg joanie: this link holds all discussions we are talking about <clown> http://svg-whiz.com/svg/table.svg <jamesn> can you embed html in SVG like you can embed svg in html? <cyns> UIA Table pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671288(v=vs.85).aspx <https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671288%28v=vs.85%29.aspx> janina: using text objects in SVG is a hack ... to mimic tables <cyns> UIA Grid control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671277(v=vs.85).aspx <https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671277%28v=vs.85%29.aspx> <MichaelC> a+ Léonie <LJWatson> q} <cyns> UIA tableitem control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671289(v=vs.85).aspx <https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671289%28v=vs.85%29.aspx> <cyns> UIA grid item control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671278(v=vs.85).aspx <https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671278%28v=vs.85%29.aspx> LJWatson: IBM has an enormous array of complex charts - svg is not a painting tool any more Bryan: true that svg has no table mapping structure janina: we need to do that for ARIA 2 ... ARIA 1.1 has too tight time frame for that MC: defer that +1 janina: not to take too much too early MC: joanie please take this in your review request MC. meaning of tables vs. grids still has lots to do MC: other things about tables? ... or other things on your radar? Joanie: no (short answer) MC: looks like turning neverteless in big discussions .. lets address this to Rich joanie: are we planning to have face to face? MC: not concrete plans yet .. waiting till november janina: some sort of clarity probably by end of april <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to make a next step re table proposal <janina> +1 to Joanie's proposal joanie: I can make a new branch cyns: joanie I added links to table/grid definitions for info# Summary of Action Items [End of minutes] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> version 1.140 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>) $Date: 2015/04/02 18:04:20 $ ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Received on Thursday, 2 April 2015 18:08:14 UTC