- From: Marco Zehe <mzehe@mozilla.com>
- Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:52:19 +0100
- To: "Schnabel, Stefan" <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>, "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
- CC: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>, Matthew King <mattking@us.ibm.com>, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>, W3C WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <54632DD3.6070808@mozilla.com>
Well if I remember correctly, it has always been said that if something
has an aria-label* construct, it should be prioritized over any normal
text that might also be there. If some AT vendors don't honor that, or
only honor it if some random selection tells it to, that's not a problem
of the ARIA spec and doesn't need an extra role. If an extra would be
what is needed to make it more palpable to somebody, then we do have a
problem, but not a technical one, but an evangelism one. Because,
turning things on its head, a role does not necessitate an aria-label*
construct. In other words, an aria-label* construct can exist without a
role, and should be treated by ATs accordingly. Likewise, the presence
of a role does not mean there always has to be an aria-label* construct,
and ATs should not stop looking for other means of a name just because
there is a role set.
If we suddenly started to require a role always be present if an
aria-label* construct is, and vice versa, it defeats the premise that
ARIA is an addition where the host language falls short. Because if the
host language already provides the correct semantics for a role, which
it does in your example, or for a given widget role, the mechanics of
the host language provide the correct name already, there is no need to
use the other respectively. It would only over-complicate things
unnecessarily and lead to code that is bigger than it needs to be.
And, as Lisa pointed out already, things should not become more
complicated for the average web developer and consultant as it already
is. You, Stefan, will probably get it right if we did this, I would,
too, and presumably everybody else on this list. But the potential for
mis-use of even more roles and stuff is so big that I am really scared.
In my opinion, this has the potential to be misused just as much as role
"application".
Marco
On 12.11.2014 10:38, Schnabel, Stefan wrote:
>
> Hi Marco,
>
>
>
> because (as I have written) from an implementers viewpoint, adding a
> “trigger“ or a member in the list of
>
> roles where ARIA labelling has to be supported (which is what they
> actually do for some but not all roles) is maybe on a higher
> acceptance level.
>
>
>
> However,
>
>
>
> <span role=”application” aria-label=”Out of stock – That is Critical”
> style=”color:red”>Out of Stock</span>
>
>
>
> will work already, too, but role=application will be likely deprecated
> in ARIA 1.1.
>
>
>
> Regarding your last post: Applause for the FF / NVDA support of this
> but I do not see any contradiction in emphasizing by role that
> something is more than just plain text.
>
>
>
> Best Regards + Troll Greetings
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:*Marco Zehe [mailto:mzehe@mozilla.com]
> *Sent:* Mittwoch, 12. November 2014 10:28
> *To:* Schnabel, Stefan; lisa.seeman; James Craig
> *Cc:* Cynthia Shelly; White, Jason J; Fred Esch; Matthew King; Steve
> Faulkner; Joanmarie Diggs; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
> *Subject:* Re: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role
>
>
>
> Hi Stefan,
>
> OK, trolling back:
> What makes you think they'll support role="text" if they don't get
> aria labelling right now?
>
> Marco
>
> On 12.11.2014 10:04, Schnabel, Stefan wrote:
>
> Hi Marco,
>
>
>
> I’m in the mood for some trolling since I don’t understand
> sometimes implementation logic behind.
>
>
>
> Can you please go ahead and tell FS that they should support
> aria-label (or labelledby, describedby) e.g. in
>
>
>
> <span aria-label=”Out of stock – That is Critical”
> style=”color:red”>Out of Stock</span>
>
>
>
> in ALL their modes (important!) according to the ARIA spec WITHOUT
> having a role applied on the span or on the body?
>
>
>
> If they refuse, having
>
>
>
> <span role=”text” aria-label=”Out of stock – That is Critical”
> style=”color:red”>Out of Stock</span>
>
>
>
> will make things clearer for the screen readers that there is more
> than just plain text .. namely ARIA-attributed text.
>
>
>
> Best Regards
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
> *From:*Marco Zehe [mailto:mzehe@mozilla.com]
> *Sent:* Mittwoch, 12. November 2014 09:24
> *To:* lisa.seeman; James Craig
> *Cc:* Cynthia Shelly; White, Jason J; Fred Esch; Matthew King;
> Steve Faulkner; Joanmarie Diggs; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
> *Subject:* Re: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role
>
>
>
> +1000 to that, Lisa! Given the history of the web, I think it is
> safe to assume that everything that is nothing else is text, and
> that text does not need its own role. None of the examples I have
> seen in this thread convinced me that this is either necessary nor
> in any way helpful.
>
> Marco
>
>
> On 12.11.2014 07:48, lisa.seeman wrote:
>
> My 2 cents
>
> Each new role we introduce will create a learning curve for
> authors, many of whom will initially apply it incorrectly,
> killing the user experience, until an accessibility consultant
> tells them how to use it correctly. (Assuming the consultant
> is not also using it inappropriately - this is not to be taken
> for a given.) I say this based on a lot of personal experience.
>
>
>
> If we do not need a new role we should not create it.
>
>
>
>
>
> All the best
>
> Lisa Seeman
>
> Athena ICT Accessibility Projects
> <http://accessibility.athena-ict.com>
> LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---- On Wed, 12 Nov 2014 05:15:29 +0200 *James
> Craig<jcraig@apple.com> <mailto:jcraig@apple.com>* wrote ----
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 2014, at 5:41 PM, Cynthia Shelly
> <cyns@microsoft.com <mailto:cyns@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if it might make more sense to change the
> definition of presentation or none to cover this scenario
> >
> > <p>I <img src="heart.gif" alt="love" role="none"> New
> York.</p>
> >
> > to read "I love New York" instead of "I New York"
>
> As Matt alluded, the ARIA 1.0 "presentation" role ("none"
> is a 1.1 synonym role of "presentation") does not expose
> any attribute or role semantics, so this would not expose
> the text alternative.
>
> > The glyph scenario is different, because it is text, and
> is often read as a single character.
>
> I don't think it'd always be limited to a single character.
>
> > But, do we need a role for that? Would this work instead?
> >
> > <p>I <span aria-label="love">♥</span> New York.</p>
>
> The role of the span is ambiguous here. Some platforms
> don't expose the span at all, preferring to flatten the
> selection string, so there is no element on which to hang
> the label. (Though that might just be an implementation
> detail.)
>
> James
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 12 November 2014 09:52:52 UTC