- From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:15:46 +0100
- To: Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org>
- CC: Bijan Parsia <bparsia@cs.man.ac.uk>, "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <pfps@research.bell-labs.com>, public-owl-wg@w3.org
- Message-ID: <49B78F52.2040105@w3.org>
Sandro Hawke wrote: >> I am happy to see I generated some storm here, so I am not 100% sure >> what changes should happen on the response to Jan... There seem to be no >> consensus... >> >> I will call it a day. Maybe by the time I am back tomorrow everything >> will be solved...:-) > > I suggest we do one of these: > > - ask Jan whether he was thinking of something like TriX or something > like Rigid-RDF. > I would not complicate things too much with this... > - make a response which works in either case, eg by simply pointing > out that TriX-like solutions aren't very useful (in case that's > what he was thinking about) and saying nothing about other > possible approaches to generalized XML. > I tried to do that, and the incriminated paragraph now reads: [[[ There is, however, a further issue to consider. Let us suppose that a regular XML encoding, closely reflecting RDF triples, was used (something like TriX[1], for example). That would mean that OWL construct would have to be encoded in, essentially, an XML transliteration of N-triples. Though this would be well defined, it would still be complicated to manage the resulting XML content through, say, XPath, and almost impossible to define an XML schema that could be used by a schema aware editor. This is simply due to the fact that the triple representation of OWL constructs are, by their very nature, fairly complex (think of the representation of class intersections using RDF lists). One could of course imagine a slightly more complex XML encoding of RDF, but it is unclear at the moment what that would be. In other words, relying on a generic XML format for RDF may not satisfiy the requirements end users have for such a serialization of OWL due to its inherent complexity. ]]] > - drop the argument about TriX, since I don't think Jan really > cares about it, and even if he does, it doesn't really matter. > We can of course drop the whole paragraph, but I believe it is more proper to answer Jan's concerns... Ivan > I'm fine doing the work on any of these. > > -- Sandro > > >> Ivan >> >> Bijan Parsia wrote: >>> On 10 Mar 2009, at 15:41, Sandro Hawke wrote: >>> [snip] >>>> I don't think that's the relevant claim. I read Jan's comment to say: >>>> >>>> If OWL 2 has a serialization which is XML-Schema-friendly, it should >>>> use some general solution for making such serializations, not >>>> something which is specific to OWL 2. >>> Well, I read your email to say, "Oh yes, Bijan, I think you are 100% >>> right on GRDDL and I'll fight on your side to the death." >>> >>> Ok, that's a *little* more extreme, but it's pretty hard to see where >>> your reading is coming from :) >>> >>>> Now there are two different kinds of schema-friendliness. There is the >>>> TriX style, where the schema checks that you have triples, but doesn't >>>> care what the triples are. >>> And would be the most likely thing to be picked up for standardization, >>> at the moment. >>> >>>> I don't find this very interesting or >>>> useful; it certainly doesn't meet Bijan's needs. >>> INDEED. >>> >>>> I suspect it's not >>>> what Jan is talking about. >>>> >>>> So the interesting/useful kind of schema-friendliness is where the XML >>>> schema makes sure the right sort of triples are present, in the right >>>> graph shapes. That's the kind of schema-friendliness OWL/XML and Rigid >>>> RDF offer. >>> Huh? The kind of schema-friendliness really has nothing to do with >>> triples, it has to do with making the relevant structures salient to an >>> XML Schema like schema language and type system. >>> >>>> The paragraph I'd like to eliminate seems to argue against the first >>>> kind of schema-friendliness, which I don't think anyone is actually >>>> advocating. Worse, it suggests that because this first kind of >>>> friendliness is painful, all kind of generalized schema-friendliness are >>>> painful. >>> The only demonstrated version of the second I've seen was RSS 1.0. And >>> it didn't really work there either. >>> >>> Current practice is to convert. E.g., GRDDL. >>> >>> If you want to demonstrate an alternative, then do so. In my experience, >>> TriX or TurtleXML is much more the standard notion and thus much more >>> likely what Jan is meaning, to the degree he has anything specific in mind. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Bijan. >>> >>> >> -- >> >> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead >> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ >> mobile: +31-641044153 >> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html >> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf >> >> --------------ms080901070701050802060802 >> Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 >> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" >> Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature >> >> MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIII6zCC >> AtAwggI5oAMCAQICEA7FTO/sMc63+jiuUqlFGzkwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UE >> BhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMT >> I1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA4MTEzMDA5MTI0NloX >> 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Received on Wednesday, 11 March 2009 10:16:26 UTC