- From: Christine Golbreich <cgolbrei@gmail.com>
- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:26:13 +0100
- To: Bijan Parsia <bparsia@cs.manchester.ac.uk>
- Cc: W3C OWL Working Group <public-owl-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <b0ed1d660902091526j746f89b2tefd62f5333ffeb4@mail.gmail.com>
2009/2/9 Bijan Parsia <bparsia@cs.manchester.ac.uk> > On 9 Feb 2009, at 22:07, Christine Golbreich wrote: > [snip] > >> On 2009/2/9 Bijan Parsia <bparsia@cs.manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> Not to sound like a broken record, but if: >>> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/New_Features_and_Rationale#F9:_Key >>> is the text, it still fails to address the specifics of Jim's comment. >>> >>> It also doesn't address the rationale for non-functionality. >>> >>> I note that it's quite a mess too, with repetition and a lot of emphasis >>> on stating *what* the features are rather than explaining *why* they are >>> >>> It needs a major rewrite and from someone who understands the rationale. >>> >> >> ? !! >> > > Well, I presumed, perhaps wrongly, that you didn't include various > rationales because you were unaware or didn't quite understand them. > > I volunteer, but not right now. It's hardly pressing as this document is >>> not in LC. >>> >>> I still have many concerns with the document duplicating text from other >>> documents (e.g., the grammar productions). It would be nice if we would >>> discuss it at some point. I'm happy for there to be an issue. >>> >> >> 1) The point raised by Jim was "why the last axiom wasn't entailed by the >> HasKey" in the example. This question is about the feature itself not about >> "why" this feature. >> > > I never said it was. I said it was about WHY *this aspect* of the feature. > The current text does not explain why this aspect of the feature (unlike the > text added to the syntax). I provided text that explains why this aspect of > the feature, but it was not incorporated in any way. Could you please summarize in one sentence what you would like to be added ? > > > He explicitely asked for more documentation to prevent other users to be >> surprised by non intended inferences due to the sepcificities of hasKey. >> > > Yes, which the Syntax changes address but the NF&R does not. > > Therefore, I updated the NF&R section regarding key accordingly. >> > > As I've pointed out several times, you have not address the rationale for > this aspect of the feature. I'll happily explain again, if you'd like. > > We had agreed >> > > I would appreciate that you cite precisely the agreement in the minutes. > > at the following TC that we will add more documentation on HasKey in the >> different documents and send it in the reply. >> > > I do not believe that was, in this form, resolved by the WG. > > 2) It was agreed by the WG >> > > Actually, I do not believe the WG has made such a decision. > > that the New Features and Rationale will provide two aspects for each >> feature: the "what" in subsection 'Feature' (an understandable description >> of the feature) and the "why" in subsections "theoritical perspective" and >> "implementation perspective". >> > > Uhm...this was my proposal. Though, more precisely, the first part was to > have been a "rationale from the user perspective" *NOT* another explication > of the feature. This is a strong point of disagreement. > > I repetitively asked for contributions on the latter before the FPWD. >> > > I'm not sure what that timing has to do with anything. I made several > proposals that have influence the shape of the draft. > > Boris and others have volunteered (but not you). >> > > I have provided extensive commentary about the document. I have proposed > text. I'm not sure what relevance any of that has, though. > > Finally, after having complemented these subsections (thanks), they said >> and it was agreed that it was fine like it. >> > > I'm not sure what that has to do with me. > > 3) Thanks for the "mess"! (note that you added repetitions with earlier >> text in the Syntax as well. I did not mention it to move forward.) >> > > Repetition alone does not cause problems. If you look at the key, you > copied a large chunk of text in the theoretical section from the original > proposal and it doesn't fit in well. > > In any case, if you would like to point out problems with the Syntax > document, please go ahead. > > Hopefully other comments from external people, users but not only, show >> that they do appreciate documents writen to be read by 'humans', and that >> the overview (of "what") provided by NF&R is required to help the approach >> of 'nicer' documents. >> > > This doesn't follow. I agree that the NF&R is a useful document and have > said so (e.g., at the last F2F). > > As far as I can see there has been many LC comments on the features >> themselves but none asked for a better explanation of the "why". >> > > I am. > > And, uhm, yes they have. There are a slew of comments claiming that various > features are "unmotivated". These are from people who focused on the NF&R > document. Some of this is unexpected by everyone (I certainly didn't think > the XML Syntax needed an explicit section in the NF&R! or anywhere, really), > some is due to the relatively immature state of the draft (it started much > much later than the other documents, and has undergone great improvements; > I'd like to improve it further...why is that a problem?) > > Looks like it's your single view. >> > > That's irrelevant in a consensus situation. It's also irrelevant in > determining the merits of my position. > > Until now, you are the only one having concerns with the NF&R. >> > > And so? I've been trying to read it carefully and thoughtfully. I'm sorry > that's not what you want from me. > > You still have the opportunity to provide a more extended explanation of >> the "why" in the Primer as well. >> > > There will be, but that's a separate document. And the primer isn't about > providing rationales for new features. > > BTW I'm still looking for the revision of the Primer which has been >> delayed several times. If I remember correctely, an updated version was >> expected early January to be reviewed. >> > > Yes that did not happen. Fortunately the reason for that deadline (to > engender more LC comments) has been mooted (given the flood :)). The primer > will be updated in due course. I'm primarily waiting on the OWL API update > so I can fruitfully make changes to the example. > > Of course, that's irrelevant to my comments on NF&R. So I'm not sure why > you bring it up. > > At the moment, I've been trying to work on LC comments, which are more > pressing, I think. > > I'm sorry you feel that you can simply ignore my comments until I get > exasperated enough to sharpen my tone. But none of my comments have been out > of line, afaict, out of order, or, even, unhelpful. > > I've note contributed more text because, thus far, you've ignored my > contributed text. > > Pulling back to the point, I do not believe the NF&R document current > addresses any last call comments on keys. > > It would help, imho, us to reach some level of consensus if you would > examine the text I provided which I believe *does* address Jim's comment and > concern. > > It would also help if you weren't so touchy about the document. I'm > offering my comments in good faith and intend them to be constructive. I > apologize for my frustration at your ignoring them to bleed through to my > tone here, but I hope you can put that behind you. > > Cheers, > Bijan. > I may answer the rest of your email further point by point. But, sometimes like now, I do not answer because I think it's wiser, otherwise it would never end and also bother everybody. Be sure that I never ignore comments. I always take all comments into consideration when relevant and constructive. Best Christine
Received on Monday, 9 February 2009 23:26:50 UTC