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Re: R: telco tomorrow, 15:00 CET, random talk

From: Alessandro Oltramari <aoltrama@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 13:29:31 -0400
Cc: Aldo Gangemi <aldo.gangemi@cnr.it>, "'QUATTRI, Francesca [11901993r]'" <francesca.quattri@connect.polyu.hk>, "'Philipp Cimiano'" <cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de>, "'John McCrae'" <jmccrae@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de>, "public-ontolex@w3.org" <public-ontolex@w3.org>
Message-Id: <A6741429-E328-42B4-B1B8-C7B7E5C6F20A@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Armando Stellato <stellato@info.uniroma2.it>
I'd go (again) for not overcomplicating the model: ontolex:reference should be applicable to ow:Ontology as a whole (which is, in my opinion, an elegant solution too).

Alessandro
On Jul 13, 2013, at 8:03 PM, Armando Stellato wrote:

> Hi Aldo,
> 
> Thanks a lot for the clarification! Well, to me, it really makes sense that ontolex:reference can be applicable to owl:Ontology in the same way as to any ontology entity. I would really avoid any complexification for this. After all, the (be it formally specified or not) range of obtolex:reference already includes classes, properties, skos concepts...why not ontologies too? :)
> Da: Aldo Gangemi
> Inviato: ‎13/‎07/‎2013 23.40
> A: Armando Stellato
> Cc: Aldo Gangemi; 'QUATTRI, Francesca [11901993r]'; 'Philipp Cimiano'; 'John McCrae'; public-ontolex@w3.org
> Oggetto: Re: telco tomorrow, 15:00 CET, random talk
> 
> I am thinking about the relation between a sense and an entire (typically small) ontology that formalizes a gloss. In that use case, no specific ontology element is the ontolex:reference of the sense, but the whole ontology is (remember that owl:Ontology is an OWL primitive). 
> If we accept that ontolex:reference can also hold for ontologies (not only for ontology entities), fine, otherwise we have to think about another relation.
> Aldo
> 
> On Jul 12, 2013, at 11:34:36 PM , "Armando Stellato" <stellato@info.uniroma2.it> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Aldo. I was thinking about that too (in terms of "is it the case to think
> > of some axiom for bringing a lexicon glosses automatically to the
> > ontology?"), though actually I'm not sure if I understood the exact property
> > you are speaking about.
> > Currently, we already have a property for linking senses directly to
> > ontology entities (ontolex:reference).
> > So maybe you were considering having a direct link from glosses of the
> > senses to the ontology elements ontolex:referenced by these senses? ...and
> > in case, having it automatically inferred through an axiom?
> > 
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Aldo Gangemi [mailto:aldo.gangemi@cnr.it]
> >> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 8:27 PM
> >> To: Armando Stellato
> >> Cc: Aldo Gangemi; 'QUATTRI, Francesca [11901993r]'; 'Philipp Cimiano';
> > 'John
> >> McCrae'; public-ontolex@w3.org
> >> Subject: Re: telco tomorrow, 15:00 CET, random talk
> >> 
> >> Hi all, sorry for today.
> >> This is interesting; actually sometimes I pointed out that glosses are
> > actually
> >> senses, though expressed verbosely and not with clear cut identifiers.
> >> 
> >> Anyway, when representing the structure of a traditional dictionary, we
> > need to
> >> create identifiers for different senses of a lemma, and at that point, the
> > gloss
> >> can be attached to sense identifiers through the gloss datatype property.
> >> 
> >> Once we have that, gloss analysis can be conducted, and a formal
> > definition
> >> can be extracted that makes it explicit the ontology attached to the
> > sense.
> >> 
> >> In such extensions (e.g. Mihalcea's or Hovy's gloss formalizations, or
> > Tìpalo-
> >> FRED RDFization of Wikipedia definitions), a special relation could link
> > the
> >> sense (with its gloss) to the ontology formalizing it. Should such a
> > relation
> >> should be considered in OntoLex, or left to possible extensions?
> >> 
> >> Ciao
> >> Aldo
> >> 
> >> On Jul 12, 2013, at 4:51:21 PM , "Armando Stellato"
> >> <stellato@info.uniroma2.it> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Hi Francesca,
> >>> 
> >>> in replying to Guido - who was advocating the possibility of linking
> >>> glosses to different entries (LexicalSenses, or LexicalConcepts) - I
> >>> said: "you are right Guido, as there are lexical resources which have
> >>> no notion of LexicalConcept, think about Dictionaries (either
> >>> bilingual or monolingual) which just have entries, and sense-separated
> >>> descriptions, which may contain morphological variations, synonyms
> >>> (translations for bilingual dictionaries), glosses etc..". Thus in
> >>> Dictionaries, there are just lexical entries, and their descriptions
> >>> which are sense-separated, but there is no gluing object for senses.
> >>> There is even no guarantee that two senses of two lexical entries,
> >>> which ideally collapse into a same meaning (LexicalConcept), have the
> >>> same gloss, because these are handled separately in the descriptions
> >>> of the two lexical entries (though, hopefully, the two glosses will
> >>> provide very similar descriptions :-) ). For these resources, IF we
> >>> want to represent them, there is no choice but allowing for glosses to
> > be
> >> attached to LexicalSenses.
> >>> 
> >>> My suggestion was to use the metadata, to understand which kind of
> >>> lexical resource we are dealing with, and thus know in advance where
> >>> the glosses (if
> >>> any) are attached to.
> >>> 
> >>> Best,
> >>> 
> >>> Armando
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: QUATTRI, Francesca [11901993r]
> >>>> [mailto:francesca.quattri@connect.polyu.hk]
> >>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 3:47 PM
> >>>> To: Philipp Cimiano
> >>>> Cc: John McCrae; Aldo Gangemi; public-ontolex@w3.org
> >>>> Subject: RE: telco tomorrow, 15:00 CET, random talk
> >>>> 
> >>>> To keep up with tonight's discussion:
> >>>> 
> >>>> I agree with Guido's note on different meanings for a same lexical
> > entry:
> >>> This
> >>>> occurs in one language and of course particularly across languages: I
> >>>> have
> >>> no
> >>>> practical reference for Guido's example "dog-Hund", but for instance
> >>>> the Chinese entry of 'dog' should include, apart from "domesticated
> >>>> animal", "edible animal", since dogs are commonly eaten.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Citing Armando: "Sometimes senses are not factorized on the WN
> >>>> glosses" -
> >>> if I
> >>>> got it right, can you give us an example?
> >>>> 
> >>>> F.
> >>>> ________________________________________
> >>>> From: QUATTRI, Francesca [11901993r]
> >>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:29 PM
> >>>> To: Philipp Cimiano
> >>>> Cc: John McCrae; Aldo Gangemi; public-ontolex@w3.org
> >>>> Subject: RE: telco tomorrow, 15:00 CET, random talk
> >>>> 
> >>>> Hi and sorry for the bad Skype connection.
> >>>> Here it comes again.
> >>>> F.
> >>>> ________________________________________
> >>>> From: QUATTRI, Francesca [11901993r]
> >>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:06 PM
> >>>> To: Philipp Cimiano
> >>>> Cc: John McCrae; Aldo Gangemi
> >>>> Subject: RE: telco tomorrow, 15:00 CET, random talk
> >>>> 
> >>>> Was playing around with the model. Thanks Philip for the example.
> >>>> Take the following as a random talk about the many implications or
> >>> extensions
> >>>> that can derive from it.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Let's assume sb is not looking for the French puddle, but starts from
> >>> 'dog' as
> >>>> point of discussion and tries to derive analogies across languages
> >>>> from
> >>> its
> >>>> inflections.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Let's assume we look for a mapping of 'dogged' (stubbornly
> >>>> relentless,
> >>>> persistent):
> >>>> we find similar concepts in other languages (perse2ve2rance,
> >>>> obstination
> >>> -fr;
> >>>> perseverante, ostinato -it; hartnaeckig, verbissen- de > interestingly:
> >>> verbissen
> >>>> from Biss - bite; hartnaeckig / probably from Nacken - back, lit.
> >>>> hard
> >>> back >
> >>>> similar expression in It: "avere le spalle forti" /lit. to have
> >>>> strong
> >>> shoulders)
> >>>> 
> >>>> Let's go for "to be dogged" (e.g. to be dogged by an illness) We have
> >>>> the concept of 'persecution' in at least four languages:
> >>>> *ser maltratado por/ser castigado por/ser perseguidado por (Sp)
> >>>> *verfolgt
> >>> von
> >>>> (Ge) (to be persecuted) *zhe2mo (persecution, torment)(Ch); wei3sui2
> > (lit.
> >>> "tail
> >>>> behind") versus the normal gou3 ("dog") *perseguitato, maltrattato
> >>>> (It)
> >>>> 
> >>>> Let's look for a collocation with the word, e.g. "to dog around":
> >>>> Here we
> >>> have at
> >>>> least two meanings.
> >>>> 1.to work hard 2. to cheat on sb (dogging, slang: a woman picking up
> >>>> men
> >>> at
> >>>> random)
> >>>> 
> >>>> if we go for adj. plus word (e.g. top dog), we also get another new
> >>> meaning (in
> >>>> this case: the leader or chief of a group). Interestingly, in German
> >>>> we
> >>> don't
> >>>> have the dog but the deer or stag to denote the concept (Platzhirsch).
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> ________________________________________
> >>>> From: Philipp Cimiano [cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de]
> >>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 3:36 AM
> >>>> To: public-ontolex@w3.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: telco tomorrow, 15:00 CET
> >>>> 
> >>>> Sorry, I forgot the diagram with the example.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Apologies,
> >>>> 
> >>>> Philipp.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Am 11.07.13 21:33, schrieb Philipp Cimiano:
> >>>>> Dear all,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> John sent around a link to the current version of the model early
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> week:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/community/ontolex/wiki/OntoLex_Core_Model
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I attach an illustrative example to this mail that shows how the
> >>>>> model would put into action. Hope this helps.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Tomorrow we will have our regular telco at 15:00 (CET).
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I will ask everyone on the telco to raise final issues with the model.
> >>>>> If there are no issues, we will then start the voting procedure
> >>>>> involving the whole list.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Philipp.
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> --
> >>>> Prof. Dr. Philipp Cimiano
> >>>> Semantic Computing Group
> >>>> Excellence Cluster - Cognitive Interaction Technology (CITEC)
> >>>> University
> >>> of
> >>>> Bielefeld
> >>>> 
> >>>> Phone: +49 521 106 12249
> >>>> Fax: +49 521 106 12412
> >>>> Mail: cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de
> >>>> 
> >>>> Room H-127
> >>>> Morgenbreede 39
> >>>> 33615 Bielefeld
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
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Alessandro Oltramari
Research Associate
Psychology Department, Carnegie Mellon University
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Received on Sunday, 14 July 2013 17:30:47 UTC

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