Re: Shorter and longer term agendas

Hi all,

As regards to Michael's question asking for feedback:

I use SMuFL for rendering scores in my application. MusicXML is only used
as an import/export format.

As to SMuFL short term goals, I don't have suggestions. I feel comfortable
with current specification.

As to MusicXML I fully agree with Adrian and Cristina on issue #1: how can
we ensure vendors do the right thing?. In addition, I would suggest two
short term goals:

1. Improve the documentation, at least in the following aspects:
a) Remove (or complement) all references to other formats (MuseData, MIDI)
for explaining the purpose/use of an element. so that any MusicXML user is
not forced to study other music representation systems to understand
MusicXML.
b) Add examples of use, and recommended ways of encoding things. Also add
examples and use cases for those elements or constructs that can be
difficult to understand.

2. Deprecate the procedural elements <backup> / <forward> for defining
voices content, in favor of a declarative "partwise" definition of voices.


I have a question related to the need of improving the documentation, that
can be illustrative. But I don't know if this is the right place for
posting it or I should post it in the MusicXML forum. Excuse me if this is
not the right place.

I never understood the utility of allowing many <midi-instrument> and many
<score-instrument> elements inside a <score-part> element.

In the MusicXML documentation I find *"Each MusicXML part corresponds to a
track in a Standard MIDI Format 1 file. The score-instrument elements are
used when there are multiple instruments per track*."

My suggestion #1 : The user (me, in this case) is forced to study the MIDI
standard to understand MusicXML. My suggestion is not to link the MusicXML
documentation to other documents but explain the use cases in terms that
any one with music and music notation knowledge can understand.

Now my specific questions:
a) A score-part can have many midi-instruments:
Use case: a single notated music line played simultaneously by several MIDI
instruments. Is my interpretation right?

b) A score-part can have many score-instruments:
I don't see use cases for this. Perhaps a single notated music line, but
several simultaneous instrument names for that line?

Thanks to all of you for the excellent work done.

Best regards,
Cecilio Salmeron


2015-09-29 15:56 GMT+02:00 No-C-Notes Music <xinamusic@no-c-notes.com>:

> Hi,
>
> I use MusicXML to produce my product No-C-Notes audio music description.
> I am totally with Adrian on his response point #1.
>
> I end up using 3 different software because each does not export MusicXML
> in the same way, therefore my audio output is varied with each.  Because of
> this, I am the only one who can use my application unless I design it to
> work with only one music scan and print notation software.
>
> Short term list:  <fingerings> and <repeat> cause me the most time and
> grief.
> Long term list:  Ditto on Adrian's point #2.
>
> With appreciation,
> Christina Cotruvo
> www.no-c-notes.com
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Adrian Holovaty <adrian@holovaty.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Here's my two cents.
>>
>> Context: I run Soundslice (soundslice.com), which makes interactive,
>> web-based sheet music technology. It's our own JavaScript-based music
>> engraving engine that can read MusicXML and a few other formats. It uses
>> SMuFL exclusively. We also run a free MusicXML viewer:
>> https://www.soundslice.com/musicxml-viewer/
>>
>> Clearly this has been quite a free-ranging discussion so far! Here are
>> two questions I want to raise:
>>
>> 1. How can we ensure vendors do the right thing?
>>
>> "Enforcing" the standard is just as important as creating it. In my
>> experience, the primary pain of dealing with MusicXML is that each vendor
>> (Sibelius, Finale, MuseScore, Notion) generates it differently, leading to
>> inconsistency. The biggest general problem is lack of semantics -- like
>> piano fingerings getting saved as <words>. Or data that's completely
>> missing -- like the fact that Sibelius doesn't export various guitar
>> notations such as bends and slides.
>>
>> One simple idea is to make it crystal clear where to report
>> vendor-specific MusicXML-related bugs. When I find a problem in Sibelius, I
>> have no idea whom to contact, so I just hold my nose and code around it.
>>
>> Also, I like the idea of the MusicXML Sanitizer as a stopgap, but it's a
>> proprietary thing owned by a for-profit company, with an uber-long ToS; it
>> should be a free, open-source tool.
>>
>> 2. How can we ensure human engravers (and other users of notation
>> software) input their notation in the most semantic way possible, so that
>> our efforts to improve MusicXML will actually be worthwhile?
>>
>> Michael G. wrote: "Nor can [MusicXML] distinguish formatting that
>> clarifies semantics, such as for collision avoidance, from formatting that
>> is more a matter of house style, such as font choices and spacing
>> preferences."
>>
>> YES! I love this idea! But even if we make it happen, all that work will
>> be for nothing unless people in the Real World start caring about semantics
>> in their notation.
>>
>> MusicXML will only know something is presentational if a notation editor
>> makes the distinction in the first place. Does the notation editor
>> encourage you to do things the right way, or is it easy to "hack" things?
>> In my experience, human engravers prioritize print layout instead of
>> semantics, which leads to subpar MusicXML data. (By the way, this problem
>> is rampant in many industries; I wrote about the same problem in the
>> journalism world back in 2006:
>> http://www.holovaty.com/writing/fundamental-change/)
>>
>> Perhaps the answer to this second question is showing people the kinds of
>> things that are possible if notation is properly input.
>>
>> As for the short-term projects Michael G. suggested (build initial
>> MusicXML spec, add support for SMuFL glyphs within MusicXML, fill remaining
>> gaps in SMuFL, document notation use cases): all sounds fine as a first
>> step.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>> --
>> Adrian Holovaty
>> Soundslice: https://www.soundslice.com
>> Personal: http://www.holovaty.com
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Michael Good <mgood@makemusic.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to everyone for your responses the proposed agenda for the
>>> community group. So far the discussion has focused largely on longer-term
>>> goals and alternate representations. There has been great material for
>>> discussion and we would like to hear from more people about this. In
>>> particular, we would like to identify specific cases and scenarios where a
>>> comparison with other music representations is most valuable.
>>>
>>> We would also like to see more feedback on the other questions posed to
>>> the group:
>>>
>>>    - Are we picking the correct short-term projects to start with?
>>>    These are 1) Initial MusicXML specification 2) MusicXML support for SMuFL
>>>    glyphs, 3) Identify and fix any remaining gaps and adoption barriers in
>>>    SMuFL.
>>>    - Have we defined the short-term projects properly?
>>>    - What would you most like to see done with MusicXML right away?
>>>    - What would you most like to see done with SMuFL right away?
>>>
>>> We would be especially interested in hearing from more of those who are
>>> currently using MusicXML and/or SMuFL. At this point it is just as helpful
>>> to hear "yes, this sounds like the right projects" as it is to hear "here
>>> are some proposed alternatives."
>>>
>>> We would like to start work on the shorter-term projects soon. Could you
>>> please send your responses by the end of this week?
>>>
>>> We know that some people have had trouble posting to the list. Sometimes
>>> your first post to a W3C mailing list can take a little time to get mailed
>>> out. If you encounter any problems posting to this list, please feel free
>>> to contact one of the co-chairs directly.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Michael
>>> _________________________________
>>>
>>> *Michael Good*
>>> VP Research and Development
>>> MakeMusic, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Christina Cotruvo
> No-C-Notes
> Duluth, MN  USA
> www.no-c-notes.com
>