[Minutes] 2013-01-07 and call time doodle

Hi all,

minutes are at http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html and 
below as text. Please don't forget to fill in the call time doodle
http://www.doodle.com/fmsqar7uvxckvfbq#table
note also that I made a mistake - the hours are p.m., not a.m. for 
people in Europe. Thanks to Jörg for pointing that out :)

As it stands Wednesday 4-5 p.m. CET is a candidate, but we would miss 
Ankit and Naoto.

Best,

Felix

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                                MLW-LT WG

07 Jan 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Jan/0001.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-mlw-lt-irc

Attendees

    Present
           felix, kfritsche, dF, philr, Ankit, tadej, Yves, Naoto,
           dave, dom, leroy, shaunm, Jirka, joerg, chriLi, Milan,
           Clemens, fredrik

    Regrets
    Chair
           felix

    Scribe
           Yves, fsasaki

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]roll call
          2. [6]call time
          3. [7]LC feedback
          4. [8]2.1) New value for localization quality type
             "conformance"
          5. [9]2.2) Removing disambigClassPointer
          6. [10]2.3) Need to clarify global provenance
          7. [11]2.4) Location of its:version
          8. [12]2.5) Regular expression change
          9. [13]3.4) Test suite dashboard
         10. [14]5) XML Prague demo session
         11. [15]8) EC-project internal
      * [16]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

roll call

    <fsasaki> scribe: Yves_

    <fsasaki>
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Jan/0001.html

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Jan/0001.html

call time

    Felix: proposal is Thursday 4pm UTC
    ... that's 5pm CET
    ... that's 9am MST

    <Clemens_> happy new year together

    all ok with the new day

    Jirka: will have conflict

    Felix: will do a Doodle for the time of the call

LC feedback

    <fsasaki> [18]http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling

      [18] http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling

    Felix: several comments, but none from outside the WG
    ... can't move forward in that case

    Jorg: maybe the comment period was a bad one

    Felix: agree
    ... should extend until Jan-18

    all: ok with that

    Felix: please nudge your contacts
    ... we will get comments from the i18n WG
    ... for sure. but we need more

    Dave: can people comment that they have no comments?

    Felix: yes
    ... endorsment is fine

2.1) New value for localization quality type "conformance"

    Felix: brought up by Phil before the Holidays
    ... no disagreement to add the new value
    ... no additional support either

    DF: seems to be a normative change, no?

    Felix: possibly
    ... need a strong reason to do the change
    ... any supporter in addition to Phil?

    DF: should try to avoid normative changes
    ... wait if it's really needed

    Phil: being additional value makes it easier
    ... no back compatibility issue, etc.
    ... we have a definite need for it.

    Felix: but it's a borderline change
    ... would have to justify the rational
    ... would drop it now, but keep it open
    ... you could try to fine supporters

2.2) Removing disambigClassPointer

    Felix: other tool to consume/generate that data

    <fsasaki>
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-tests/2012Dec/0170.html

      [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Dec/0170.html

    <fsasaki>
    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-tests/2012Dec/0180.html

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Dec/0180.html

    Felix: a change in the Disambiguation data category
    ... 0180 email is the right link
    ... this is dropping an attribute
    ... but ok because to test or processing is changed by it

    DF: looks like an omission correction

    Felix: will do the edit after the call

2.3) Need to clarify global provenance

    <fsasaki>
    [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-tests/2012Dec/0170.html

      [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Dec/0170.html

    Felix: this one is to clarify the global provenance

    <fsasaki> The attribute provenanceRecordsRefPointer does not
    apply to HTML as local markup is provided for direct annotation
    in HTML. Because that information is the only one in the
    provRule element, the global rule does not apply to HTML.

    Felix: it explains why the global rule does not apply to HTML

    Dave: sounds like a clarification, not a substantive change
    ... original wording was close to the LQI text
    ... maybe we need to look at it there too

    Felix: for LQI the requirements are different
    ... that's why we have different cases
    ... best practices will be important

2.4) Location of its:version

    <fsasaki>
    [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-tests/2012Dec/0202.html

      [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Dec/0202.html

    <fsasaki> "If there is no rules element in an XML document, a
    prefixed ITS version attribute (e.g. its:version) MUST be
    provided at the root element of the

    Felix: this one is to allow more flexible location of the
    version

    <fsasaki> document."

    Felix: not only in the root, but anywhere in the upper part of
    the tree of a given node
    ... not a sever change
    ... just change checking before you do the process

    Shaun: would require to change implementation though
    ... not too bad, but it's mean changing the code

    Yves: agree

    Felix: means a difference between 1.0 and 2.0

    Yves: not sure there is a problem

    Shaun: if it's in the root, and it's an ITS 1.0 processor it's
    invalid

    DF: 1.0 requires it in the root
    ... but what is the gaol
    ... what is compliant to our principles?

    <fsasaki> yves_: 1.0 processor can't check 2.0 subset

    shaun: 2.0 processor should process 1.0, but not the reverse
    ... and here 1.0 processor can know the case

    Felix: need to have note in the spc

    <scribe> ACTION: Yves to propose notes for the version location
    change [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-382 - Propose notes for the version
    location change [on Yves Savourel - due 2013-01-14].

2.5) Regular expression change

    <daveL> FYI: TCD has rejoined the internet

    <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki

    yves: I re-raised issue I raised earlier
    ... about using XSD regex for allowed characters
    ... earlier we started with a subset of that
    ... we then moved to the XSD character class
    ... I didn't disagree strongly at that point so that other
    implmeneters can work on this
    ... I think it's an interop issue
    ... it would be better for the allowedchararacter class to be
    processed with other engines than xsd
    ... we can have a subset that works with dotnet, java, xsd etc.
    ... the only difference is that the user might have to change
    the way to write a regex
    ... but that's not a big deal, the interop we gain is more
    important

    shaun: you are going to say that you will have the subset
    ... but tools need to be required to check that they conform
    from to the subset

    yves: the schema would ensure that the expression is valid or
    not

    phil: agree with Yves' argument
    ... having to figure out equivalent regex syntax can be hard

    shaun: in general I agree with Yves
    ... just worried about the verification of the subset

    felix: would we have a volunteer to help defining the regex
    subset?

    shaun: I could do that

    <scribe> scribe: Yves

    Felix: this change may be seen as normative

    <scribe> ACTION: Felix to give heads up to W3C about the
    possible change [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-383 - Give heads up to W3C about the
    possible change [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-01-14].

    DF: is it absolute that one such change would force a new
    revision
    ... is it a problem to have another LC?

    Felix: there is a difference between extending the LC period
    and doing a new publication

    DF: agree, this change seems big and warrant a new publication
    ... would hope we can do without
    ... because it brings additional feature change often

    Jirka: this change is not so big, each XSD-based implementation
    will be compatible
    ... with the old syntax
    ... using a sub-set is compatible

    DF: so we would not break anything?

    <chriLi> +q

    Jirka: only issue would be if current instances use special XSD
    faeture
    ... but that's not the case

    Jorg: with sub-set an XSD RE would be ok
    ... need to explain what kind of RE engine are supported by the
    sub-set

    Christian: does the sub-set has the same expressive power?

    Yves: from examples, yes.

    DF: a formal proof would be an agrument to not do a new LC
    ... even if we have a formal proof that the change does not
    affect the capability, the spec needs a new LC?

    Felix: yes
    ... e.g using the Unicode blocks would be 'broken'
    ... basically it's a matter of negoiation with the w3c mgmt

    DF: seems the discussion go back and forth
    ... so what is the new evidence is the question.
    ... seems people have different view at different time

    felix: from implementer it's unlikely to go back to XSD RE
    ... no-one is pushing in that direction

    felix: so we wait to see the regex from Shaun/yves

3.4) Test suite dashboard

    <fsasaki>
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-tests/2012Dec/0190.html

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Dec/0190.html

    Felix: worked on the test suite dashboard
    ... did you have a time to look at it?
    ... was proposing to drop the Google doc and replace it with an
    XML doc

    <fsasaki>
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-tests/2012Dec/att-0190/TestStuiteMaster.xml

      [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Dec/att-0190/TestStuiteMaster.xml

    Felix: automatically generated from the test suite results

    <fsasaki>
    [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-tests/2012Dec/att-0190/testsuiteDashboard.html

      [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Dec/att-0190/testsuiteDashboard.html

    Felix: and the HTML page would be generated automatically
    ... this way a simple stylesheet can re-generate the output
    from the developer outputs

    Dave: appreciate the work

    leroy: agree, looks fine
    ... need to finish the corrections from Jirka
    ... add a few test files
    ... and after that I can look at it
    ... should be able to work on it by end of week

    Felix: so by next monday we can deprecate the Google doc and
    use the XML output
    ... it would be on Github as well

    leroy: agree

    <fsasaki>
    [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2012Dec/0087.html

      [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0087.html

    Felix: need input test cases for some data categories
    ... see the list
    ... M3 deadline is at the end of January

    <fsasaki>
    [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Jan/0001.html

      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Jan/0001.html

    Felix: changes in the suite are documented in the above link

5) XML Prague demo session

    <fsasaki>
    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2012Dec/0094.html

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0094.html

    Felix: we'll have confirmation from fredrik (ENLASO) that he'll
    be there
    ... Dave as well?

    Dave: leroy should be able to go
    ... are we presenting this as a MLW event?

    <Jirka> [31]http://www.xmlprague.cz/pre-conference-friday/

      [31] http://www.xmlprague.cz/pre-conference-friday/

    Felix: pre-conference day, 1.5h slot
    ... Karl also said he would be available
    ... need to distribute the work between those people

    <scribe> ACTION: Felix to make agenda proposal for Prague
    meeting about the XML prague day [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-384 - Make agenda proposal for Prague
    meeting about the XML prague day [on Felix Sasaki - due
    2013-01-14].

    Karl: do i need to register?

    Jirka: yes
    ... fee is small

    felix: this is ok to use the LT-Web budget for this

    <Jirka> Registration for XML Prague
    [33]http://www.xmlprague.cz/conference-registration/

      [33] http://www.xmlprague.cz/conference-registration/

    Clemens: can we access the full conference for 40 Euro?

    Jirka: yes, but not to lunches and social events
    ... for that it's 100 Euros

    Felix: anyone else?

    DF: will try see if it's needed

    Felix: this is about demoing implementations
    ... good opportunity to bridge to the content world

    DF: yes, good way to contact XML people

    Felix: Prague F2F is soon
    ... let's talk about the EC-specific parts.

8) EC-project internal

    Felix: need input from Ankit

    Felix: MT harvesting tool taks: any update?

    Ankit: started to work with Cocomore on this

    Felix: talked to Clemens about this, but no info on the tool

    Ankit: we need to data to make the tool
    ... by end of January we should have prototype

    Karl: Not quite sure

    Felix: Ankit let me know if you don't get info from Clemens
    ... david: any update on roundtipping with XLIFF?

    DF: yes, should be able to provide that Wednesday

    Phil: what info will you have on Wednesday?
    ... does it includes the mapping?

    DF: we have a working prototype
    ... part of it is the mapping, but not frozen

    Felix: the task is about a prototype

    DF: Q1 is the time when we'll work on this
    ... we have work in progress

    Felix: anything else?

    meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Felix to give heads up to W3C about the possible
    change [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Felix to make agenda proposal for Prague meeting
    about the XML prague day [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Yves to propose notes for the version location
    change [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [37]scribe.perl version
     1.137 ([38]CVS log)
     $Date: 2013-01-08 16:54:54 $

      [37] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [38] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/