Re: [Issue-63] New value for "Values for the Localization Quality Issue Type": "conformance" Re: [Minutes] MLW-LT call 2013-02-25 and action for implementers / review dry run

Sorry, will respond to this later today but I don't like "anomalous".

Phil



On 26 Feb 2013, at 23:24, "David Lewis" <dave.lewis@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

> Perhaps if we are inverting the meaning, then 'anomalous' might be a
better name. Just a suggestion.
>
> Dave
>
> On 26 Feb 2013, at 13:39, "Dr. David Filip" <David.Filip@ul.ie> wrote:
>
> > All, I realize that Yves, had proposed inverting the value to
> > non-conformance here
> >
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0048.html

> > which I think makes lot of sense.
> > So we indeed need Phil's input here for making the call for consensus.
> > @Phil, will you have this addressed in your proposal by tomorrow in
> > order to move forward to the call for consensus?
> > Thanks
> > dF
> >
> > Dr. David Filip
> > =======================
> > LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
> > University of Limerick, Ireland
> > telephone: +353-6120-2781
> > cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
> > facsimile: +353-6120-2734
> > mailto: david.filip@ul.ie
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Dr. David Filip <David.Filip@ul.ie>
wrote:
> >> Felix, thanks for the minutes.
> >> Felix, Phil, I expected a call for consensus to accept the new
> >> conformance type as proposed by Phil, but the minutes say that this
> >> did not move forward because Phil was not present.
> >> Do you want Phil to make the call for consensus? I thought all was
> >> clear on this one, and we literally only wanted to see if anyone
> >> eventually comes with a new material objection.
> >> I think it is time to close this one.. Thanks and please let me know
> >> how you want to proceed re this issue.
> >> dF
> >>
> >> Dr. David Filip
> >> =======================
> >> LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
> >> University of Limerick, Ireland
> >> telephone: +353-6120-2781
> >> cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
> >> facsimile: +353-6120-2734
> >> mailto: david.filip@ul.ie
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote:
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> minutes are at
> >>> http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html
> >>> and below as text. Two important action items:
> >>>
> >>> - please fill in the doodle poll for Luxembourg, see
> >>> http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9
> >>> - HTML implementers: have a look at
> >>> http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#item04
> >>> and the discussion on defaults for HTML. The default implementation
proposal
> >>> at
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0235.html

> >>> may put some burden on implementers, see e.g.
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0243.html

> >>> before moving this forward we need to be sure that this is feasible.
We will
> >>> discuss the topic again on Wednesday.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Felix
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - Felix
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   [1]W3C
> >>>
> >>>      [1] http://www.w3.org/
> >>>
> >>>                               - DRAFT -
> >>>
> >>>                               MLW-LT WG
> >>>
> >>> 25 Feb 2013
> >>>
> >>>   [2]Agenda
> >>>
> >>>      [2]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0241.html

> >>>
> >>>   See also: [3]IRC log
> >>>
> >>>      [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-irc
> >>>
> >>> Attendees
> >>>
> >>>   Present
> >>>          joerg, felix, kfritsche, Ankit, Des, Pedro, omstefanov,
> >>>          Jirka, Yves, shaunm, Marcis, pnietoca, leroy, mdelolmo,
> >>>          Giuseppe, Milan, tadej, davelewis
> >>>
> >>>   Regrets
> >>>          christian, clemens, dom
> >>>
> >>>   Chair
> >>>          felix
> >>>
> >>>   Scribe
> >>>          shaunm
> >>>
> >>> Contents
> >>>
> >>>     * [4]Topics
> >>>         1. [5]agenda
> >>>         2. [6]High level usage scenario doc publication
> >>>         3. [7]HTML ITS default behaviour
> >>>         4. [8]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt
> >>>            /track/issues/68
> >>>         5. [9]Conformance type
> >>>         6. [10]XLIFF mapping
> >>>         7. [11]Unicode normalization / NIF comments , ITS
> >>>            Ontology
> >>>         8. [12]AOB / Rome / Luxembourg prep
> >>>     * [13]Summary of Action Items
> >>>     __________________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> agenda
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt/2013Feb/0241.html
> >>>
> >>>     [14]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0241.html

> >>>
> >>> High level usage scenario doc publication
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [15]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use
> >>>   _cases_-_high_level_summary
> >>>
> >>>     [15]
> >>>
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary

> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> - having Christian editing the doc until next Monday
> >>>   - vote for publication 6 March call - publication 8 March
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> next monday = 4 march
> >>>
> >>>   fsasaki: publishing march 8. last date before the workshop
> >>>   ... Please go through your use cases
> >>>
> >>> HTML ITS default behaviour
> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: there is discrepancy in behavior between different data
> >>>   categories in HTML
> >>>   ... when an author marks up a document because of different
> >>>   behavior in different tools
> >>>   ... we don't specify things like the <b> element should be
> >>>   withinText
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> ITS 1.0 global rules are at
> >>>   [16]http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#relating-its-plus-xhtml
> >>>
> >>>     [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#relating-its-plus-xhtml
> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: we could have a set of global rules for HTML that
> >>>   implementors must use
> >>>   ... if you don't implement global rules, this won't work.
> >>>   instead have default attributes
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> default implementation proposal at
> >>>   [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt/2013Feb/0235.html
> >>>
> >>>     [17]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0235.html

> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: implementation of such defaults is probably difficult
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt/2013Feb/0243.html
> >>>
> >>>     [18]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0243.html

> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: implementation is not a problem for okapi
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt/2013Feb/0205.html
> >>>
> >>>     [19]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0205.html

> >>>
> >>>   pnietoca: some MT systems hardcode translation of some
> >>>   attributes
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [20]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085
> >>>
> >>>     [20] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085
> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: currently html translate affects attribute and
> >>>   its:translate does not
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [21]http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#datacategories
> >>>   -defaults-etc
> >>>
> >>>     [21]
> >>>
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#datacategories-defaults-etc
> >>>
> >>>   kfritsche: in our implementation, we use non HTML specific
> >>>   defaults from the ITS spec, sec. 8.1
> >>>
> >>>   <Marcis> Will there be a list of defaults somewhere specified?
> >>>   We are currently adding Elements Within Text rules within HTML
> >>>   documents...
> >>>
> >>>   pnietoca: we use global rules for translate, for instance.
> >>>   ... if some people don't use it, you have to hardcode which
> >>>   attributes to translate
> >>>
> >>>   kfritsche: is this the proposal to change the default values in
> >>>   table 8.1?
> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: proposal is to have in the html specification
> >>>   information on defaults
> >>>
> >>>   fsasaki: or we could provide a global rules file
> >>>   ... I was proposing the defaults for people only doing its
> >>>   locally
> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: there's a discrepancy between defaults and global rules
> >>>   because of overriding
> >>>   ... people who don't implement ITS globally just have to make
> >>>   sure the behavior with defaults matches what it would be with
> >>>   default values
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> shaun: issue of not knowing what you are overriding
> >>>   with local attributes - that is an issue with any format right?
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> yves: yes
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> shaun: who are the implementers who don't do global
> >>>   rules?
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [22]http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnl
> >>>   e/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html
> >>>
> >>>     [22]
> >>>
http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html

> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> it seems everybody of the implementers currently on
> >>>   the table, do global rules
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> karl: new implementers might do local markup only -
> >>>   we should be aware of that
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> shaun: there is no implementation difficulty for me
> >>>   either way
> >>>
> >>>   fsasaki: propose not to close this issue too fast
> >>>   ... other people not on the call might have different opinions
> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: implementors could look at their implementations to see
> >>>   how difficult defaults versus global rules is
> >>>
> >>>   fsasaki: give implementors time, come back to issue next
> >>>   wednesday
> >>>
> >>>   <daveL> apologies for joining late
> >>>
> >>> [23]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/
> >>> 68
> >>>
> >>>     [23]
> >>> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/68
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> see draft + example files here
> >>>   [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt/2013Feb/0221.html
> >>>
> >>>     [24]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html

> >>>
> >>>   tadej: no major contents changes. sent a draft to the mailing
> >>>   list
> >>>   ... we are dropping granularity levels, renaming to text
> >>>   analysis, clarified some
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> ACTION: christian to edit issue-68 proposal at
> >>>   [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [recorded in
> >>>   [26]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
> >>>
> >>>     [25]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html

> >>>
> >>>   <trackbot> Created ACTION-451 - Edit issue-68 proposal at
> >>>   [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [on Christian Lieske -
> >>>   due 2013-03-04].
> >>>
> >>>     [27]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html

> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt/2013Feb/att-0221/ta-examples-20130222.zip
> >>>
> >>>     [28]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/att-0221/ta-examples-20130222.zip

> >>>
> >>>   omstefanov: all the file names in the test suite still refer to
> >>>   disambiguation
> >>>
> >>>   tadej: should we rename all the files?
> >>>
> >>>   leroy: yes, and move to directories named for the category
> >>>
> >>> Conformance type
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt-comments/2013Feb/0048.html
> >>>
> >>>     [29]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0048.html

> >>>
> >>>   fsasaki: needs input from Phil. Phil not present today
> >>>
> >>> XLIFF mapping
> >>>
> >>>   daveL: xliff round-trip examples for rome help use work through
> >>>   some issues
> >>>   ... we need separate discussions on how best to present that as
> >>>   best practices. don't spend time on that now. maybe in rome
> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: while discussing terminology, we realized when you tag
> >>>   something in xliff, we don't have a way to mark it up with ITS
> >>>   in the original document
> >>>
> >>>   <Marcis> A question: if we add mark-up to XLIFF, should we use
> >>>   the mrk or its:span annotation?
> >>>
> >>>   daveL: in XLIFF we can add things after authoring time; don't
> >>>   have local markup for these in ITS
> >>>
> >>>   <Yves_> to marcis: <mrk> (you can't have <its:span> in XLIFF)
> >>>
> >>>   Yves_: you can add ITS attributes to <mrk>. some are redundant
> >>>   with XLIFF attributes
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [30]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLI
> >>>   FF_Mapping
> >>>
> >>>     [30]
> >>> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLIFF_Mapping
> >>>
> >>>   daveL: three use cases: mapping from source format to XLIFF,
> >>>   mapping from XLIFF to target format, marking up XLIFF to be
> >>>   consumed in XLIFF in another process
> >>>   ... ideally have the same markup in all those cases, but might
> >>>   not be possible
> >>>
> >>> Unicode normalization / NIF comments , ITS Ontology
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt-comments/2013Feb/0050.html
> >>>
> >>>     [31]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0050.html

> >>>
> >>>   fsasaki: don't require normalization in other technologies.
> >>>   propose to close issue
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [32]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
> >>>   ssues/119
> >>>
> >>>     [32]
> >>> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/119
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki>
> >>>   [33]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/ITS
> >>>   -RDF_mapping#Ontology_.28DRAFT.29
> >>>
> >>>     [33]
> >>>
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/ITS-RDF_mapping#Ontology_.28DRAFT.29

> >>>
> >>>   daveL: expanded that out of example in NIF
> >>>   ... took a Relax NG schema and went through data categories to
> >>>   see which could be used in RDF and NIF
> >>>   ... appreciate feedback
> >>>   ... haven't figured out what we need to do with annotators ref.
> >>>   works out in provenance setting, but maybe not NIF
> >>>   ... problems where we've introduced idea that order has
> >>>   temporal relationship
> >>>
> >>> AOB / Rome / Luxembourg prep
> >>>
> >>>   <fsasaki> [34]http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9
> >>>
> >>>     [34] http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9
> >>>
> >>>   fsasaki: have a call to prepare for rome meeting. please fill
> >>>   in doodle poll
> >>>
> >>> Summary of Action Items
> >>>
> >>>   [NEW] ACTION: christian to edit issue-68 proposal at
> >>>   [35]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
> >>>   lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [recorded in
> >>>   [36]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
> >>>
> >>>     [35]
> >>>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html

> >>>
> >>>   [End of minutes]
> >>>     __________________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [37]scribe.perl version
> >>>    1.137 ([38]CVS log)
> >>>    $Date: 2013-02-25 17:36:45 $
> >>>
> >>>     [37]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
> >>>     [38] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
> >


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Received on Wednesday, 27 February 2013 02:45:46 UTC