Re: Make its:param optional?

Hi Yves,

2012/10/15 Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com>

> Hi Felix,****
>
> ** **
>
> Did we agree that its:param is optional? (I’m not against that, I’m just
> checking)
>


I think we didn't. So far Shaun was asking for it - Shaun, is it still an
issue?


> ****
>
> ** **
>
> If yes, then, that is the only reason we need to have a warning about it.
> So maybe:****
>
> ** **
>
> “Because the its:param element is optional and may not be implemented by
> all ITS processors you should use it only when necessary. It should be
> avoid when creating ITS global rules for interchange (for example, if you
> create an XML vocabulary and you provide reference ITS rules for it).”****
>
> **
>

Maybe we could take the second part, even if its:param is not optional:

"its:param should be avoid when creating ITS global rules for interchange
(for example, if you create an XML vocabulary and you provide reference ITS
rules for it, or in general rules for wide spread vocabularies like HTML or
DocBook).”

The CSS part doesn't make sense, but the interop part maybe even without
"optionality"?

Best,

Felix


**
>
> Cheers,****
>
> -yves****
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org]
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 14, 2012 11:39 AM
> *To:* Shaun McCance
> *Cc:* Yves Savourel; public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Make its:param optional?****
>
> ** **
>
> Hi Shaun, all,****
>
> ** **
>
> it seems the essence of the "warning" is what you wrote below - changed a
> bit:****
>
> ** **
>
> its:param is a mechanism for situations in which project or partner
> specific workflows need parameters for XPath. When creating ITS global rues
> for interchange (for example, if you create an XML vocabulary and you
> provide reference ITS rules for it), then you should avoid its:param.****
>
> ** **
>
> Would that be OK with everybody? ****
>
> ** **
>
> Best,****
>
> ** **
>
> Felix****
>
> 2012/10/12 Shaun McCance <shaunm@gnome.org>****
>
> On Fri, 2012-10-12 at 05:31 -0600, Yves Savourel wrote:
> > Hi Felix, Jirka, Shaun, all,
> >
> > > OK, so we keep its:param I guess.
> > > Would it be OK to add the following note to the its:param section:
> > >
> > > its:param adds flexibility in real-life situations. However in general
> > > it is recommended not to use its:param. It is disallowed in CSS,
> > > see section 5.3.5, since the current version of CSS does not allow
> > > variable bindings.
> >
> > Hum, I have nothing about a note touching on the difficulty of
> implementation. But the CSS part, I think, is a different story. It sounds
> like the fact its:param is not part of ITS-with-CSS is a valid reason to
> not use it with XPath either. That's a bit strong for a best practice.
> >
> > -- a) Likely, its:param is going to be used only in the cases where
> > there is no other way to write the rule. So it'll be for use cases
> > where you can't use CSS anyway. So re-suing those rules doesn't really
> > applies.****
>
> I think its:param is useful for very specific stuff. And hopefully
> when you're dealing with specifics, you know your ITS processing
> tool and what it can do.
>
> But if you're creating ITS files for interchange (for example, if
> you create an XML vocabulary and you provide reference ITS rules
> for it), then you should avoid its:param.****
>
>
> > -- b) You can make a rule that uses its:param not use it by just
> > replacing the variable by a given value, then you convert that to CSS.
> > It's not much more work than actually converting the XPath selector to
> > a CSS selector. Sure it's not a 1-to-1 port of the rules, but the
> > point is that first: its:param is not a show-stopper, and second: if
> > someone wants to convert XPath-based rules to CSS-based rules, the
> > hard part is to convert XPath to CSS, not its:param.
> >
> > -- c) Why its:param cannot be used in CSS in the first place? CSS may
> > not have a binding mechanism but what's preventing CSS implementers to
> > use the mechanism Jirka described in
> >
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Oct/0148.html?
> In most programming languages it's simple to substitute the variables by
> their values before applying the selectors. If I were an implementor of a
> CSS-based ITS engine I would be puzzled by the section 5.3.5.****
>
> There's just no agreed-upon syntax for variables in CSS selectors.
> You could pretend that $ is an XPath-like variable sigil and do a
> substitution pre-pass, but it's really not a CSS selector anymore.
>
> I'm not aware of any efforts to introduce variables for selectors.
> Jirka mentioned CSS variables might exist in the future, but the
> only effort I know of is about adding variables in properties,
> not selectors:
>
> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-variables/****
>
>
> > -- d) Do we have anyone implementing ITS with CSS selectors? If we
> > don't at this stage, I wonder if any CSS-based argument is applicable.**
> **
>
> I implemented it in Jits, except without CSS selector namespace
> support, because querySelectorAll doesn't do namespaces. But I'm
> not actually using ITS files with CSS selectors for anything.
>
> --
> Shaun
>
>
> ****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> --
> Felix Sasaki****
>
> DFKI / W3C Fellow****
>
> ** **
>



-- 
Felix Sasaki
DFKI / W3C Fellow