[Minutes] MLW-LT call 2012-12-10 and further info / requests for infos and actions

Hi all,

below are the minutes of today's call and a few pieces highlighted / 
summarized. I very much hope that I got the attendance right, if not 
please let me know.

About the MUST and MUST NOT statements: thansk a lot to Olaf-Michael for 
your comments. At


there is now an updated version. Can I ask the following people to 
contribute or to work on tests together:
- provenance: Dave, Phil, Pedro
- terminology: Marcis, Yves
- language information: Declan / Ankit, Philip (UL)
- domain: Tadej, Milan
- Id Value: Yves, Philipp, Shaun
- Localization Quality Issue: Arle, Phil, Serge, Yves
- MT Confidence: Declan, Yves
- Allowed Characters: Philip, Karl

Please provide by next week's call an info when you will have the 
related tests. The bottom line should be
- try to provide tests that can be used in the test suite framework 
developed by Leroy, Dom et al.
- review the existing tests for "your" data categories
- if the tests don't fit into the framework, let the group know how you 
are going to provide them, e.g.: input file + human readable description 
what the test assertion is

I'd encourage especially people to support Leroy. He is doing a 
tremendous job in updating the test suite, but he deserves a lot of help 
from the data category "drivers", see list above. Please be prepared to 
let us know during next week's call how you can contribute, or better: 
contribute before on public-multilingualweb-lt-tests@w3.org.

2) Various topics related to the minutes and ITS2.0 last call outreach
- Olaf-Michael said about the review of the last call draft: "I can 
distribute it to JIAMCATT, please share your text with me". Folks, 
please send to the list whatever you can share.
- Declan said at 
that he can send a request for comments to
which I think would be great.
- Jirka, you wrote at

that from the HTML folks probably we won't get a a consensus answer - 
which very likely is true. I might send out an individual mail then, let 
me know if you want to do that.
- We are still missing people reaching out to the "content" CMS side of 
things - Clemens & Karl, can you help with that?

I'm putting Nieves into CC so that she can help with tracking the 
potential overlap(s).

Related to LT-Web: as said on the call: owners of action items 
action-346, action-347, action-348, action-349, action-350, action-351, 
action-352, action-353, action-354 (me :) ), please send the info for 
the annual report asap to Arle, but not later than end of this week. 
Thanks a lot for your input in advance.





       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                                MLW-LT WG

10 Dec 2012


       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0042.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-irc


           daveL, dF, fsasaki, kfritsche, mdelolmo, leroy, philr,
           Jirka, Ankit, Arle, Yves_, chriLi, clemens, joerg,
           olaf-michael, pnietoca, Milan, serge, tadej, naoto, des





      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]roll call
          2. [6]Outreach to get LC feedback
          3. [7]handling of last call comments
          4. [8]Work items needed on the draft
          5. [9]tests needed
          6. [10]best practices topics
          7. [11]testing / milestones
      * [12]Summary of Action Items

roll call

    <fsasaki> checking attendees ...

    <fsasaki> scribe: dF


      [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0042.html

    fsasaki: comments on agenda?

    fsasaki: no comments on agenda

Outreach to get LC feedback

    fsasaki: ... announcement through linkedIn dicussed
    ... but we now prefer direct contact
    ... it is importnat to get feedback from the right people to
    specific sections
    ... DFKI is tracking the call for reviews
    ... e.g. mtConfidence by MT people
    ... It is very bad if you get many hundreds of comments
    ... but it is also bad to get only a few dozen. This might
    indicate to the w3c mgmt that the public is not interested

    daveL: reaching out to specific people and also re
    implementation interest
    ... the goal is to get feedback re usability

    fsasaski: Those are good points: implementations and usability

    daveL: Do we have some wording for the public announcement?


      [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0025.html

    daveL: technical people might be busy, but if they bosses see
    the announcement, it might help drive the reviews

    fsasaki: I posted link to announcement for tech audience, but
    can be tweaked

    <omstefanov> I can distribute it to JIAMCATT, but please, you
    guys, share your texts with me/us.

    <scribe> ACTION: dF to tweak the text for business audience
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-363 - Tweak the text for business
    audience [on David Filip - due 2012-12-17].

    <fsasaki> ACTION: arle to nudge serge to send text about last
    call announcement to arle [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-364 - Nudge serge to send text about
    last call announcement to arle [on Arle Lommel - due

    fsasaki: another outreach effort before xmas
    ... localization professionals group on linkedIn

    Arle: we do not want to confuse people
    ... this week we should post on the mlw workshop in March
    ... next week for public review

    Serge: I would have it the other way round, since there is
    plenty of time till March

    Felix: This is important to announce before xmas break to boost

    Conclusion was that this week there will be the ITS 2.0 last
    call announcement on linkedin, and next week the March workshop

handling of last call comments


      [17] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling

    fsasaki: People need to be aware of the comment answering
    process, it is a painful process but very important
    ... se the wiki page on the posted link
    ... the whole WG is automatically on the comment list.


      [18] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling#Processing_of_comments

    fsasaki: everyone who is not yet formally on the WG should
    subscribe to the comments list
    ... Every comment receives a new Issue on the tracker, same as
    we were tracking the issues bfeore LC
    ... we now need to be very careful to have track record on

    daveL: Do we really have distinct issue for every comment, or
    can we group?

    fsasaki: the baseline is that we need to document resolutions
    along with comment submitter e-mail reactions
    ... there is no rule on grouping, but it may be as well easier
    to track them individually even if similar

    daveL: What if they are distracted and do not reply back after
    we've made changes

    fsasaki: again no clear rule..


      [19] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling#Tracker_handling

    fsasaki: but if they do not come back within a reasonable
    timeframe we are OK with documenting that we've tried to get
    the response
    ... The tracker handling link (see above) is mainly for
    co-chairs, as we need to keep track of the comments, can add
    notes, kewords
    ... to keep track


      [20] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling#Generation_of_Disposition_of_Comments

    fsasaki: the keywords in the wiki are important for disposition
    of comments

    <fsasaki> [21]http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling

      [21] http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling

    fsasaki: using this keywords we create a DB dump that is
    displayed via an XSLT
    ... this is just an example, as we did not have LC comments
    yet, this is just to show how the keywords work
    ... I am going to update this style sheet so that it reflects
    the LC
    ... we have two WG commnets from Yves
    ... we might find time to cover them today
    ... at the end of LC we will have a document with all comments
    resolved, accepted or rejected and all changes editorial, NOT
    ... it is important to be structured and keep track of the
    issue #

    daveL: substantive change would require new LC?

    fsasaki: yes, it would mean at least 3 week delay, and we do
    need to wait to the end of the first last call and dicpose of
    all commnets before issuing a new one
    ... it actually would not save time, to jump to new LC before
    disposing of ALL comments from the previous LC

    <Yves_> yes

Work items needed on the draft

    fsasaki: In LC we mean that normative sections are stable
    ... but sections 1 and 2 are not stable
    ... Christian sent comments to co-editors
    ... explanatory material also needs to be right

    <fsasaki> * edit together. in various online editing calls.

    fsasaki: we need to decide on plan for editong these
    explanatory sections with Christian's comments

    <fsasaki> * find heros who can go through the sections and send
    the outcome to the group

    fsasaki: editing together works well, but takes a lot of time
    of many people..
    ... wee need volunteer heroes who first edit off line

    daveL: we need volunteers to look at the content along with
    Christian's comments in advance of an editing call
    ... I'd be happy to take a few, but not before xmas

    Phil: I'd take the quality sections

    fsasaki: these are not under discussion now
    ... could someone start the work before xmas?

    <fsasaki> "sections 1-2"

    Naoto: are we talking introduction and basic concepts?
    ... I read through it today, I found typos

    fsasaki: can you send the typos?

    <scribe> ACTION: Naoto: to compile comments on sections 1 and 2
    along with Christians comments and to send to comment list
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-366 - Compile comments on sections 1
    and 2 along with Christians comments and to send to comment
    list [on Naoto Nishio - due 2012-12-17].

    <scribe> ACTION: Felix to look into Naoto's edits and other
    fedback from Aron with Opera [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-367 - Look into Naoto's edits and
    other fedback from Aron with Opera [on Felix Sasaki - due

    Christian: Whatever creates less noice, happy to resolve with

    fsasaki: I propose to move the above till the end of the year
    ... everybody OK with that?

tests needed

    Phil: This makes sense

    fsasaki: I created a wiki page re testing


      [24] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Ownership_of_rfc2119_statements

    fsasaki: Olaf had input on that, thanks
    ... this is autogenerated
    ... the wiki markup is bad..

    the baseline it is a table of MUST and MUST NOT statements

    scribe: each has a separate row
    ... column 4 is importnat
    ... data category owners need to provide tests
    ... most of the statements are covered with testsuite or schema
    ... some are not, we need a good stror for them
    ... we need to explain how to verify these..
    ... it is not always possible to have a test in the current
    test suite framework.
    ... There should be always a good story, why something is not

    Olaf: you saw from my e-mail that about quarter is identical
    ... I see now that it is because of being auto-generated..
    ... pruning down would ease going trough it

    fsasaki: we are looking for somebody to do the testing for each
    ... but testing might not be always required
    ... feedback on quality from Daniel
    ... generated many MUST statements that are hard to test in a
    machine readable way
    ... still there is a way how to verify, e.g. have examples for
    human judgement
    ... is this answer OK?

    Olaf: I understand

    <scribe> ACTION: felix to downsize the table [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-370 - Downsize the table [on Felix
    Sasaki - due 2012-12-17].

    fsasaki: looking for volunteers to address rows

    <Arle> Arle for quality rows

    fsasaki: please type your name in IRC aginst data categories

    <scribe> ACTION: Arle to dispose of quality related rows in the
    table [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-371 - Dispose of quality related rows
    in the table [on Arle Lommel - due 2012-12-17].

    Phil: still unclear, would we provide example files?

    fsasaki: Eve with example files, the machine test might not be
    ... how could a machine decide if something is e.g.
    semantically acurate
    ... we can define test for human testers
    ... is it clear?

    Phil: It is
    ... Lot of quality related rows, is that a generation issues?

    fsasaki: This is due to automatic generation, not very useful
    in the current state..

    <philr> I will take a look at the 5 or 6 loc quality related

    <scribe> ACTION: Phil to dispose of quality issues related ones
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-372 - Dispose of quality issues
    related ones [on Phil Ritchie - due 2012-12-17].

    daveL: we probaly have the positive statements covered by the
    test suite
    ... we probably also need to go through the negative

best practices topics


      [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0040.html


      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0041.html

    fsasaki: various areas, e.g. ITS to XLIFF mapping
    ... se the posted link..
    ... BP are not mandatory
    ... they need manpower
    ... if someone needs editing set up, please contact co-chairs

    Arle: I will work on quality

    fsasaki: quality is not yet on the list

    Arle: I need to work on it anything for QT launchpad, so thet
    group gets it for free..

    <Clemens> Felix, I've to go... is there something you need me
    for, now?

    fsasaki: The WG is not just publication cahnnel
    ... it is a time consuming process
    ... even though not nornmative it needs to be drafted, reviewed
    and OKed by the group

    daveL: I agree we do not try and revive the requirements
    ... we should adress high level use cases
    ... I'd look into provenance..
    ... Another worthu topic would be integration of text analytics
    into MT

testing / milestones


      [30] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgIk0-aoSKOadG5HQmJDT2EybWVvVC1VbnF5alN2S3c#gid=0

    fsasaki: this is the latest state of testing commitments
    ... thanks for testing webinar to Dom and leroy
    ... next milestone is Dec 17
    ... Does any one have issue with the next week milestone?
    ... The alternatives are one category completely

    Phill: We are in good shape

    <Fredrik> Fredrik: It's ok with Enlaso

    fsasaki: Please report if you have issue with the milestone

    Olaf: Does it mean to get to all gree by next week?

    fsasaki: no, we have milestones
    ... implementation plan is not about the colours at this stage,
    but about meeting the milestones as sepcified above the table
    ... we want conformant tests, but now it is about making
    ... Other items we can address next week


      [31] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/open

    fsasaki: Arle posted a draft
    ... now looking into action items
    ... feedback for annual report
    ... many are due today
    ... does that work for everyone?

    Phil: I sent a Google doc last week

    fsasaki: it is not important to have loads of stuff, one or two
    paragraphs is OK

    Arle: no template
    ... just vanila html

    fsasaki: Arle, can you post the link again?


      [32] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/2012-annual-report/

    Des: due date?

    Arle: nothing specifically from you, unless you really want
    ... this is for section leaders
    ... in the LT-Web

    I can do it by Wed COB

    fsasaki: AOB?
    ... next week we will continue LC comments and Christian
    commnets to non-nomative stuff
    ... AOB?
    ... Adjourned

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Arle to dispose of quality related rows in the
    table [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: arle to nudge serge to send text about last call
    announcement to arle [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: dF to tweak the text for business audience
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to downsize the table [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Felix to look into Naoto's edits and other
    fedback from Aron with Opera [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Naoto: to compile comments on sections 1 and 2
    along with Christians comments and to send to comment list
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Phil to dispose of quality issues related ones
    [recorded in

    [End of minutes]

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Received on Monday, 10 December 2012 21:45:11 UTC