Correction: I got it wrong default 16px links have height of 19px with spacing (not 24px)

Hi Kathy, all,

I got my measurement all wrong when looking at the default stacked links 
example
http://3needs.org/en/testing/code/target-spacing-default.html

When I measured the height of target plus spacing I did not take into 
account that with stacked links, it would be incorrect to measure from 
the top of line text below the respective target to the bottom of the 
line text of the link above, because the areas above and below the 
actual target text are still taken as default target (as indicated by 
the background colour and the cursor change).

It appears that in a default unordered list at 100% with no CSS applied, 
the 16px text link target is exactily 19px high in Firefox, there is no 
space in between targets. In Chrome, the target is 17 or (zoomed in) 
18px high, and there is 1 px space between targets. So both are not 
anywhere near 24px.

Detlev




Am 27.09.2020 um 21:47 schrieb Kathy Wahlbin:
>
> How about if we exclude the stacked links and including the spacing:
>
> Target Size (AA)
>
> The size of the target for pointer including the space between targets 
> is at least 24 by 24 CSS pixels except when:
>
>   * Inline: The target is in a sentence, block of text, or set of 3 or
>     more links;
>   * User Agent Control: The size of the target is determined by the
>     user agent and is not modified by the author;
>   * Essential: A particular presentation of the target is essential to
>     the information being conveyed.
>
> NOTE : This exemption would not apply as soon as anything like font 
> size - and in the case of mobile/tablet browsers, viewport meta- has 
> been modified by the author)
>
> Kathy
>
> VP Enterprise Accessibility & General Manager
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> *From:* jake abma <jake.abma@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 26, 2020 1:59 PM
> *To:* Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>
> *Cc:* Sukriti Chadha <sukriti1408@gmail.com>; Mobile a11y tf 
> (public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org) <public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Pointer Target Spacing Proposal for Rationale and Research
>
> I do like the idea of the approach, but what user need exactly are we 
> trying to solve now? Is this truly enough for that user need?
>
> How many times do we see such small targets, and how much problems / 
> feedback do we have / is collected, that this is what we try to solve now?
>
> Most targets we talked about last year do not fit these dimensions.
>
> We all know and see what the value of good targets and possible 
> spacing does in general, but with lowering the bar this much aren't we 
> only desperate trying to get something in there without solving 
> specific needs for people who need it, which may give a false 
> impression you're creating something accessible / becoming  a sham?
>
> When looking at the wished / chosen approach for Silver, it all starts 
> with the user need to be solved.
>
> At least we should be clear about this in the Understanding docs.
>
> ps. The example you gave Detlev are all in a sentence and are excepted...
>
> Op za 26 sep. 2020 om 19:28 schreef Detlev Fischer 
> <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de <mailto:detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>>:
>
>     Thanks for the extensive background research!
>
>     As to your proposal For a revised SC text that calls for 24x24px
>     without allowing fir spacing, my gut feeling now is that we may
>     only succeed in getting this adopted by the working group if we
>     allow for target plus spacing, too, to cover the frequent
>     scenarios of stacked links in TOCs, drop-downs and so on; as we
>     discussed, one approach might be to work from the browser text
>     size and line height defaults and include target (16px) AND
>     default size of spacing top and bottom to arrive at the overall
>     size requirement (all target, or target plus spacing) where
>     spacing is shared. We could set 16px as the absolute minimum for
>     target size, and 20? 22? as the minimum of target plus default
>     spacing. This is much less than what the user need would call for,
>     but it might prevent really bad cases (for example, people
>     reducing the default text size and then have stacked links with
>     default line height, no padding etc.)
>
>     Browsers do render the unstyled default of links in div, p, or
>     most likely ul / li constructs differently - I have quickly
>     knocked together a page without any styling (except giving the
>     links a cyan background) just to see how browsers handle the
>     spacing default:
>
>     http://3needs.org/en/testing/code/target-spacing-default.html
>
>     Sent from phone
>
>
>
>         Am 26.09.2020 um 05:11 schrieb Sukriti Chadha
>         <sukriti1408@gmail.com <mailto:sukriti1408@gmail.com>>:
>
>         
>
>         Hi Kim, Kathy and MATF members,
>
>         Please find the document below with research, overview of
>         issues raised and a revised proposal that has the rationale
>         from a few different angles. Please let me know if I can help
>         clarify anything or answer questions. Thank you!
>
>         Document -
>         https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gl0XVAY66jpBXphDR_VbbtjsJZfC_vvDJCMa_17SR2U/edit#heading=h.tuvbez1itgj0
>
>         Gist of the new proposal :
>
>         Target Size (AA)
>
>         The size of the target for pointer inputs is at least 24 by 24
>         CSS pixels except when:
>
>           * Inline: The target is in a sentence or block of text;
>           * User Agent Control: The size of the target is determined
>             by the user agent and is not modified by the author;
>           * Essential: A particular presentation of the target is
>             essential to the information being conveyed.
>
>         NOTE : This exemption would not apply as soon as anything like
>         font size - and in the case of mobile/tablet browsers,
>         viewport meta- has been modified by the author)
>
>         Best,
>
>         Sukriti
>

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Detlev Fischer
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