Re: Pointer Target Spacing Proposal for Rationale and Research

Hi Kathy, all,

Looking at the default stacked links example
http://3needs.org/en/testing/code/target-spacing-default.html

If I measure correctly (using Web Developer Toolbar > Miscallaneous > 
Display ruler and setting that to 24 x 24 px) the default rendering of 
stacked links at font-size: 16px and line-height: normal shows that when 
superimposing the Display ruler rect of 24 x 24px, there is enough 
spacing avaliable. So I think that when we do includespacing in the 
overall target size requirement, we actually do not need the "set of 3 
or more links" exception.

Detlev




Am 27.09.2020 um 21:47 schrieb Kathy Wahlbin:
>
> How about if we exclude the stacked links and including the spacing:
>
> Target Size (AA)
>
> The size of the target for pointer including the space between targets 
> is at least 24 by 24 CSS pixels except when:
>
>   * Inline: The target is in a sentence, block of text, or set of 3 or
>     more links;
>   * User Agent Control: The size of the target is determined by the
>     user agent and is not modified by the author;
>   * Essential: A particular presentation of the target is essential to
>     the information being conveyed.
>
> NOTE : This exemption would not apply as soon as anything like font 
> size - and in the case of mobile/tablet browsers, viewport meta- has 
> been modified by the author)
>
> Kathy
>
> VP Enterprise Accessibility & General Manager
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> *From:* jake abma <jake.abma@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 26, 2020 1:59 PM
> *To:* Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>
> *Cc:* Sukriti Chadha <sukriti1408@gmail.com>; Mobile a11y tf 
> (public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org) <public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Pointer Target Spacing Proposal for Rationale and Research
>
> I do like the idea of the approach, but what user need exactly are we 
> trying to solve now? Is this truly enough for that user need?
>
> How many times do we see such small targets, and how much problems / 
> feedback do we have / is collected, that this is what we try to solve now?
>
> Most targets we talked about last year do not fit these dimensions.
>
> We all know and see what the value of good targets and possible 
> spacing does in general, but with lowering the bar this much aren't we 
> only desperate trying to get something in there without solving 
> specific needs for people who need it, which may give a false 
> impression you're creating something accessible / becoming  a sham?
>
> When looking at the wished / chosen approach for Silver, it all starts 
> with the user need to be solved.
>
> At least we should be clear about this in the Understanding docs.
>
> ps. The example you gave Detlev are all in a sentence and are excepted...
>
> Op za 26 sep. 2020 om 19:28 schreef Detlev Fischer 
> <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de <mailto:detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>>:
>
>     Thanks for the extensive background research!
>
>     As to your proposal For a revised SC text that calls for 24x24px
>     without allowing fir spacing, my gut feeling now is that we may
>     only succeed in getting this adopted by the working group if we
>     allow for target plus spacing, too, to cover the frequent
>     scenarios of stacked links in TOCs, drop-downs and so on; as we
>     discussed, one approach might be to work from the browser text
>     size and line height defaults and include target (16px) AND
>     default size of spacing top and bottom to arrive at the overall
>     size requirement (all target, or target plus spacing) where
>     spacing is shared. We could set 16px as the absolute minimum for
>     target size, and 20? 22? as the minimum of target plus default
>     spacing. This is much less than what the user need would call for,
>     but it might prevent really bad cases (for example, people
>     reducing the default text size and then have stacked links with
>     default line height, no padding etc.)
>
>     Browsers do render the unstyled default of links in div, p, or
>     most likely ul / li constructs differently - I have quickly
>     knocked together a page without any styling (except giving the
>     links a cyan background) just to see how browsers handle the
>     spacing default:
>
>     http://3needs.org/en/testing/code/target-spacing-default.html
>
>     Sent from phone
>
>
>
>         Am 26.09.2020 um 05:11 schrieb Sukriti Chadha
>         <sukriti1408@gmail.com <mailto:sukriti1408@gmail.com>>:
>
>         
>
>         Hi Kim, Kathy and MATF members,
>
>         Please find the document below with research, overview of
>         issues raised and a revised proposal that has the rationale
>         from a few different angles. Please let me know if I can help
>         clarify anything or answer questions. Thank you!
>
>         Document -
>         https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gl0XVAY66jpBXphDR_VbbtjsJZfC_vvDJCMa_17SR2U/edit#heading=h.tuvbez1itgj0
>
>         Gist of the new proposal :
>
>         Target Size (AA)
>
>         The size of the target for pointer inputs is at least 24 by 24
>         CSS pixels except when:
>
>           * Inline: The target is in a sentence or block of text;
>           * User Agent Control: The size of the target is determined
>             by the user agent and is not modified by the author;
>           * Essential: A particular presentation of the target is
>             essential to the information being conveyed.
>
>         NOTE : This exemption would not apply as soon as anything like
>         font size - and in the case of mobile/tablet browsers,
>         viewport meta- has been modified by the author)
>
>         Best,
>
>         Sukriti
>

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Detlev Fischer
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