Draft minutes from Nov 10 2016 teleconference

https://www.w3.org/2016/11/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html

[W3C]<http://www.w3.org/>

- DRAFT -
Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
10 Nov 2016

See also: IRC log<http://www.w3.org/2016/11/10-mobile-a11y-irc>

Attendees
Present
shadi, marcjohlic, Kim, Kathy, David, Chris, Jon, Detlev, Alan, Jatin, chriscm
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
jon_avila
Contents

  *   Topics<https://www.w3.org/2016/11/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
  *   Summary of Action Items<https://www.w3.org/2016/11/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  *   Summary of Resolutions<https://www.w3.org/2016/11/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>

________________________________

<scribe> scribe: jon_avila

kw: touch base on non-interference of AT and then switch over to last pointer sc -- Patrick can't make it but we can started on reviewing it and get some notes and finalize next week
... any concerns or anything to add to SC that we have so far?

dm: 12-15 in first working draft - not sure how WCAG WG will put be able to put something together by then

kw: lot of work to be done in the intent and what SC are similar between 3 task forces. They have the start of a plan and key team of people to look at things
... tf will work with wg to understand intent and focus a WCAG WG meeting on all the keyboard and touch (hypothetical) -- perhaps too much for one meeting.
... questions about responsive layouts or breakpoints, etc. We may want to add techniques into existing SC Did anyone see anything to add based on emails on list?

mj: questions on m1 pointer and term pointer input -- why not use direct manipulation

<marcjohlic> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/direct-manipulation/

kw: might be worth adding a note and more of a definition

detlev: how would direct manipulation be define?

mj: not sure direct manipulation was defined in a way that would work for us.

kw: pointer encompassing mouse and keyboard

<marcjohlic> Definition: Direct manipulation (DM) is an interaction style in which users act on displayed objects of interest using physical, incremental, reversible actions whose effects are immediately visible on the screen.

<DavidMacDonald> 10.3 Implicit Pointer Capture Some input devices (such as touchscreens) implement a "direct manipulation" metaphor where a pointer is intended to act primarily on the UI element it became active upon (providing a physical illusion of direct contact, instead of indirect contact via a cursor that conceptually floats above the UI). Such devices are identified by the InputDeviceCapabilities.pointerMovementScrolls property and should have "[CUT]

detlev: seems dated and doesn't reflect different mechanisms, questionable whether of value here

<DavidMacDonald> https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/

kw: others may have questions so we should make sure we clarify

dm: presented our SC at Toronto a11y conference. 85% approval rating on ideas.
... a few objections, specifically on requirement to access with one keystroke

kw: agree we need to work on wording

dm: wasn't the speech input one

detlev: some problems forking m14 from github

kw: need to work with Shadi to get it on right respository. all should be under the same. Patrick has moved most over including ones on the wiki

dm: some people not comfortable with orientation -- would like to see more research

kw: down to last couple of weeks. There will be a comment period under WCAG WG

dm: question was on m3 requiring support without multipoint gestures

<Jatin> SC Text M3-All functionality can be operated without requiring precise/timed pointer gestures or multi-pointer gestures.

dm: this is not when AT is running.

detlev: non-AT type of criterion - aimed at disability where people can't use separate fingers

dm: we already have a non-interference conformance requirement. SC on this seems to be redundant
... some argue that the conformance requirement is buried

kw: conversation needs to happen

dm: example of signature area that isn't accessible and is not relied on for conformance of page.

detlev: easy thing to test
... things in conformance requirements tend to get lost

dm: should we have two tier strategy for including FPWD
... could say here are thing that are well developed and these we are still discussing

kw: preference is to submit everything -- that was the plan -- up to WG for how they will review

kp: ready to go to m9

<Kim> https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/gh-pages/SCs/m9.md

detlev: first sentence is not clear to me

dm: trying to say all operation can be operated with pointer and doesn't require just screen coordinates

detlev: screen coordinate issue might make it hard to pass

dm: talking about x y
... m10 already mentions sensors

ja: sensors seems to complicate m9

dm: a lot of overlap with m6, m9, m10, and m3

kw: pointer includes touch

<DavidMacDonald> David concerned lots of overlap M3, M6, M9, M10

detlev: requires simply access with pointer without pressure
... makes it harder to understand with term screen coordinates

kP; point is that tilt and other thins are extra -- shouldn't rely on them.

detlev: hard to parse of people who aren't familiar with advanced pointer inputs.

kw: use to refer to this as advanced pointer input but we changed the name
... didn't want to say 3d touch -- tried to make it generic
... do you see this as being covered under SC -- I see this as separate

dm: haven't put all 4 SC together and look at overlap
... change shortname to simple pointer

<Kim> All pointer functionality can be operated using screen coordinates, without requiring additional sensor information.

kp: does what I put in make it clearer

kw; wg will look to see what can be combined

kw: are we saying the same thing in different SC

kp: does that sentence make it clearer.

dm: it is more clear.

detlev: beyond screen coordinates seem like gestures next to device
... you don't operate the screen coordiantes

<Kim> All pointer functionality can be operated using screen coordinate information, without requiring additional sensor information.

dm: think we can be combined m3 and m9

<DavidMacDonald> All functionality can be operated without requiring pointer information beyond screen coordinates.

kp: see them as different

<DavidMacDonald> All functionality can be operated without requiring pointer information beyond screen coordinates.

<Detlev> +1 to Kathy

<Kim> +1

dm: a note would help

kw: david can you suggest a note to put in both of them
... rewording is fine
... twist would be related to stylus

<DavidMacDonald> Note: the techniques M3 and M9 are releated and may be combined. M3 requires that functionality work without timing or multi gesters, M9 arequires it works without tilt, specific presure, or angle.

kp: any objections to rewording?

detlev: good distinction to make between pointer sensors and other sensor information such as shake, accelerometer

<DavidMacDonald> Note: the techniques M3 and M9 are related and may be combined in 2.1. M3 requires that functionality work without timing or multi gestures, M9 requires it works without tilt, specific pressure, or angle, etc..., M10 requires that it works without shaking or tilting the device etc...

kp: m9 is talking about sensor information related to pointer

kw: david will you do the pull request on that?

dm: sure

detlev: add acceleration

kp: m10 is different
... todos in a couple of areas

kw: any other concerns on things to add as todos so we can finalize for next week

detlev: we have 3d touch or pressure -- what about long press? Is that ok?

kp: would fall under timing

kw: device settings can be changed

detlev: have some more time to get comments in

trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2016/11/10 17:03:43 $
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Found Date: 10 Nov 2016

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