Re: Tweak 2.5.3

The user agent vs AT vs webpage/app as the "responsible party" for a
conformance to a criteria I find irrelevant as it pertains to the formation
of a criteria.  Saying that the user agent "should be responsible" is all
fine.  That doesn't mean that it's not part of the criteria.  I actually
agree with the overall point made, however, wanted to point out the danger
in this line of thinking.  There are a lot of elements of WCag 2.0 that
user agents make difficult for developers, they're still criteria, and
still required for conformance to a given level of compliance.

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
wrote:

> Ø  What the criterion, as it reads now, essentially does is universally
> define the selection gesture to be on touch up.
>
>
>
> I don’t think it says that.   We can tweak the note to describe case 1 and
> case 2 that you point out.
>
>
>
> Ø  It doesn't seem to me to be our place to define this.  This removes a
> lot of developer flexibility, without really accomplishing anything
> specific from an accessibility point of view.  In fact, what we really
> accomplish is alienating Type 1 Users.  When two subsets of disabled users
> may find one black and white approach better than the other, shouldn't we
> allow flexibility?  In fact, don't we want to REQUIRE flexibility?
>
> Yes, I think we do that.  The SC allows for touch down as long as the
> action can be undone.
>
>
>
> Ø  I would propose making this a Triple or Double A requirement, and
> having the success criterion read very similar to what it does now.
>
>
>
> I’d vote to keep this AA and not AAA but it’s open for discussion.
>
>
>
> Ø  However, say something about: Users should have the ability to define
> whether selection (onClick events in web speak) occurs on touch down, or on
> touch up.  This would satisfy both users.  It certainly satisfies Type 1
> users better than the current requirement.
>
>
>
> We are talking about something very different from onclick IMO.  Also, we
> don’t want to require authors to provide both options – that would be a
> user agent thing.
>
>
>
> iOS has touch accommodation features and allows for when it’s turned on to
> use initial or final touch location – final is checked by default.
>
>
>
> The iOS settings also allow for touch repeat and for touch duration as
> well as a touch delay.  These user agent settings seem to address the needs
> that we were originally trying to solve – but these settings came out a few
> months ago after we had already identified this success criteria.
>
>
>
> Dwell time, accidental touches, and repeated touch because the first touch
> was not accepted, button location, pushing off of the touch screen with
> force, were items (among others) identified in the CSUN presentation I
> attended.
>
>
>
> So perhaps our SC should be focused around these things such as providing
> visual feedback, and methods for something to be undone and not relying on
> the duration of the touch for activation.  That is we make this more
> general and get rid of specifics about touch up or down.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
>
> SSB BART Group
>
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> 703.637.8957 (Office)
>
>
>
> Visit us online: Website <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/> | Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/SSBBARTGroup> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/ssbbartgroup> | Linkedin
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/355266?trk=tyah> | Blog
> <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/blog/>
>
> Check out our Digital Accessibility Webinars!
> <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/webinars/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Chris McMeeking [mailto:chris.mcmeeking@deque.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 31, 2016 4:13 PM
> *To:* Kathy Wahlbin
> *Cc:* Jonathan Avila; ALAN SMITH; David MacDonald;
> public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Tweak 2.5.3
>
>
>
> Upon further reflection, if the AT is not on, I believe the current
> wording of the criteria has a fatal flaw.  Let's assume there are two types
> of disabilities at play.
>
>
>
> Type 1: The user has an easy time targeting for touch down, but difficult
> controlling through the entire motion.  As such the initial target is
> precise, but the release point is not.  Think mild cerebral palsy.
>
>
>
> Type 2: The second set of users use the screen for support throughout the
> gesture.  Their initial contact point may be off, but they release at the
> correct spot.  Think essential tremor or geriatric.
>
>
>
> When we originally started discussing this criteria, it seemed to me that
> it was about not having 2 actions take place per gesture (ex: not
> responding to both touch up and touch down, but rather one or the other).
> This makes a lot of sense.  Both Type 1 and Type 2 users would have a
> problem with a system that took advantage of both gestures.
>
>
>
> What the criterion, as it reads now, essentially does is universally
> define the selection gesture to be on touch up.  It doesn't seem to me to
> be our place to define this.  This removes a lot of developer flexibility,
> without really accomplishing anything specific from an accessibility point
> of view.  In fact, what we really accomplish is alienating Type 1 Users.
> When two subsets of disabled users may find one black and white approach
> better than the other, shouldn't we allow flexibility?  In fact, don't we
> want to REQUIRE flexibility?
>
>
>
> I would propose making this a Triple or Double A requirement, and having
> the success criterion read very similar to what it does now.  However, say
> something about: Users should have the ability to define whether
> selection (onClick events in web speak) occurs on touch down, or on touch
> up.  This would satisfy both users.  It certainly satisfies Type 1 users
> better than the current requirement.
>
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Kathy Wahlbin <kathyw@ia11y.com> wrote:
>
> Touch duration is something that can be set in the device settings.  Is
> there something that we would need to do from mobile application or website
> perspective?
>
>
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> *From:* Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 31, 2016 3:08 PM
> *To:* ALAN SMITH <alands289@gmail.com>; David MacDonald <
> david100@sympatico.ca>
>
>
> *Cc:* public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org
> *Subject:* RE: Tweak 2.5.3
>
>
>
> Touch duration (dwell time) was a big factor seen in the study I attended
> a CSUN session on.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> 703.637.8957 (Office)
> Visit us online: Website <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/> | Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/SSBBARTGroup> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/ssbbartgroup> | Linkedin
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/355266?trk=tyah> | Blog
> <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/blog/>
>
> Check out our Digital Accessibility Webinars!
> <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/webinars/>
>
>
>
> *From:* ALAN SMITH [mailto:alands289@gmail.com <alands289@gmail.com>]
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 31, 2016 3:06 PM
> *To:* Jonathan Avila; David MacDonald
> *Cc:* public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org
> *Subject:* RE: Tweak 2.5.3
>
>
>
> Do we also need to consider touch duration?
>
> I personally know of people with injuries and other finger sensitivity
> conditions that need a longer touch time to perform a touch trigger.
>
>
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
> *Sent: *Thursday, March 31, 2016 2:04 PM
> *To: *David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> *Cc: *public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org
> *Subject: *RE: Tweak 2.5.3
>
>
>
> David, thank you for putting this together.  Since we are talking without
> ATs that remap the gestures I think it is confusing to talk about focus.
> For example, when I touch an HTML button on iOS the events are touchstart,
> touchend and mouseover if I drop and lift my finger on the button.  If I
> drop then move my finger and then lift somewhere else they are touchstart,
> touchmove and then touchend.  Only controls like input would receive focus
> on mobile safari without AT.  When AT is running other interactive elements
> do receive focus.  Chris mentioned that some users would actually prefer to
> trigger based on touchstart since they might move their finger to the wrong
> place when lifting.    I really wish we could find some reliable research
> on this topic.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> 703.637.8957 (Office)
> Visit us online: Website <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/> | Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/SSBBARTGroup> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/ssbbartgroup> | Linkedin
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/355266?trk=tyah> | Blog
> <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/blog/>
>
> Check out our Digital Accessibility Webinars!
> <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/webinars/>
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca
> <david100@sympatico.ca>]
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 31, 2016 12:52 PM
> *To:* Jonathan Avila
> *Cc:* public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Tweak 2.5.3
>
>
>
> In discussions during the call I took an action to make it clear that
> 2.5.3 is about the environment with AT is turned off.  I thought it would
> be best to just make it a trailing note after the SC.
>
> ===========================
> 2.5.3 Independent Activation: The activation gesture has one or more of
> the following characteristics (Level A):
>
>    1. is separate from the focus gesture,
>    2. provides confirmation,
>    3. is reversible,
>    4. a mechanism is available to activate functionality independently
>    from focus.
>
> This is when platform assistive technology that remaps touch gestures is
> not turned
>
> ===================
>
> **OR:**
>
> If we want to incorporate it into the text of the SC then it would look
> like this.
> 2.5.3 Independent Activation: When platform assistive technology that
> remaps touch gestures is off, the activation gesture has one or more of the
> following characteristics (Level A): ...
>
> We use "When platform assistive technology that remaps touch gestures is
> turned on/off" twice now. This is the most accurate term we could come up
> with, but is a bit of a mouthful, do we dare create an acronym (PATRTG ??)
> which would be defined in its first appearance and in the glossary?
>
>
> ===Definition==
> Platform assistive technology that remaps touch gestures (PATRTG):
> Software that is integrated into the operating system, ships with the
> product, and/or is updated or installed via system updates. This software
> changes the characteristics of the touch interface when turned on. (e.g.,
> When turned on, a system screen reader may remap a right swipe gesture to
> move focus from item to item instead of it's default behaviour of changing
> screens, when the assistive technology is not on.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3#Proposed_2.5.3
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 4:02 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> I've updated it to "focus" instead of "selection"
>
> We might also consider "on focus" but I'd like the group to mull that over
> before giving that nod to JavaScript.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 9:58 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> my interpretation is "focus"
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Jonathan Avila <
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
>
> I apologize that I was not on the call on Thursday but I had an unexpected
> eye doctor appointment.   I have a question around 2.5.3 – what is meant by
> selection?  We use that twice and I’m not sure what we mean by that.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 17, 2016 12:22 PM
> *To:* public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Tweak 2.5.3
>
>
>
> Small tweak:
>
> As per our meeting today, I tweaked 2.5.3
>
> 2.5.3 Independent Activation: The activation gesture has one or more of the following characteristics (Level A):
>
> 1) is separate from the selection gesture,
>
> 2) provides confirmation,
>
> 3) is easily reversible, or
>
> 4)a mechanism is available to activate functionality independently from
>
> selection.
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3#Proposed_2.5.3
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:18 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> As per our meeting today, I tweaked 2.5.3
>
> 2.5.3 Independent Activation: The selection gesture has one or more of the
> following characteristics (Level A):
> 1) is separate from the activation gesture,
> 2) provides confirmation,
> 3) is easily reversible, or
> 4)a mechanism is available to activate functionality independently from
> selection.
>
>
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3#Proposed_2.5.3
>
>
>
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