- From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
- Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 10:56:58 -0700
- To: public-mathml4@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CAESRWkA3HssXRWHrOkPdf-YaT_WnN6w7SAaLgBnWpnrOHhb_TQ@mail.gmail.com>
Attendees:
-
Neil Soiffer
-
Brian Kardell
-
Louis Maher
-
David Carlisle
-
Murray Sargent
-
Bruce Miller
-
Patrick Ion
Agenda:
https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/8#issuecomment-699753792
The meeting was recorded:
https://benetech.zoom.us/rec/share/A9Uq8szPKnT0WiLEtUsJrxNHFDkQ9Plcsd39F7GXJpxL-L5RqHOFZ7GN_FKI-iDc.cKuILMzuUfL6BGdm
(Access Passcode: =TOy!855) The meeting starts ~5 min in
Thanks to Patrick for doing the minutes.
Charter Timelines
https://mathml-refresh.github.io/charter-drafts/math-2020.html
-
Core Level 1
NS: we need dates
BK: maybe Q1 2022
NS: for the whole thing maybe 2024
BK: just say beginning normative work and WD expected
NS: Q1 2022 for Test Suite and Impl Reports; is that all?
BK: Yes from my POV; we have 2300 or so tests (perhaps less with those for
features we backed out removed)
-
Core Level 2
-
Other Deliverables:
-
Test Suites
-
Implementation Reports
-
???
Resolving more issues:Applying visual effects #179
<https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/179>
NS: Rob not here, so no update.
BK; there’s lots going on in October, in partic in Igalia
automatic size adjustment: #225
<https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/225> Updates?
BK: No update
U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS in mo operators: #146
<https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/146> => write a polyfill?
Updates?
No update
Include mo@accent attribute into MathML Core? #210
<https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/210> Didn't reach any
conclusions last time.
NS: Brian and I had some discussion on implementation. Here’s a codepen:
https://codepen.io/nms/pen/bGpQjmP
NS: queston is how this affects spec; Fred wants accent on mo’s to be
ignored; I claim irt breaks rendering of lots of legacy content.
MS: rerun with accent=false makes it look quite different
NS: That shouldn’t affect stretching
MS: arrow got stretched but is higher and bolder
NS: I’ll get example images paced into the issue for a better discussion to
follow
MS: [put in before] The MathML with accents Neil gave displays in
OfficeMath as
The MathML used here is
</math>
<p>With accent explicitly off</p>
<math display="block">
<mover>
<mi>a</mi>
<mo>^</mo>
</mover>
<mo>+</mo>
<mover>
<mrow>
<mi>a</mi>
<mo>+</mo>
<mi>b</mi>
</mrow>
<mo>^</mo>
</mover>
<mo>+</mo>
<mover>
<mrow>
<mi>a</mi>
<mo>+</mo>
<mi>b</mi>
</mrow>
<mo>→</mo>
</mover>
</math>
MS: with accent=”false”, it looks different
MS: with accent=”true”, looks the same as the first (with no accent
attribute).
MS: for the a\above(x->y), the accent attribute doesn’t change anything
(first has accent=”true”, second accent=”false”). The OfficeMath accent
object only handles a single accent character.
Left: WebKit (linux/no mathjax) right: chrome+mathjax
On Safari 14.0 on a Mac OS 10.14.6 (as the CodePen with mathJax commented
out)
Add scriptsizemultiplier to core #230
<https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/230>/ #1
<https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/1>
NS: was in MathML3; then we decided to remove this and rely on the OpenMath
table; however, this ignores visual problems and there it is useful to have
this possibility; study has shown it is useful; so it is suggested to put
it back
MS: I think you can argue that this should be in a a11y setting;
NS: subscripts may not be better reduced
NS: I agree with MS that should be optional and settable by the user; but
that means this attribute cannot go away for you can’t control it if it’s
not there in Core.
MS: if there’s an open path to deal with this it;s OK; in our environment
there are lots of ways to cope; maybe CSS
NS: if it’s not there then CSS can’t control it; that’s why we need the
attribute back; people with low vision change the defaults for small font
sizes; renderers can then see that there’s been an override; so
scriptsizemultiplier =0.9 maybe would be invoked
BK: I don’t have a comment on the a11y details; though everyone is for a11y
MS: it’s a real long shot to get this in; a11y can be improved later
BK: you can zoom your font any time
MS: any time
NS: that changes the whole screen; if it’s just the math with subscripts
that is the problem then this multiplier allows …
BK; we also don’t support line breaking which affects even more persons,
surely
NS: the objection to allowing this is that it’s one more piece of work to do
MS: hyphen minus is more important
NS: I guess I’m being asked to show examples of where there’s support and
give images
LM: people could use voice
BK: or magnifiers
NS: the people I’ve talked to don’t do that; 24pt is often used but this is
about subscripts
DC: even without a scale factor exposed can’t you, say, CSS style the 2nd
child of msub to have 200%; it’s not a complete washout with
scriptsizemultiplier not exposed; nested subscripts are not all that
common; one CSS rule would surely get 90% of the cases
<<<
PI: this is about User Style Sheets (USS) then perhaps
BK: I think they may have gone out of style Chrome removed them in v 33
NS: I should ask about it at an upcoming a11y; 2 people I know with vision
problems did in fact use USS
BK: ...
MS: OfficeMath doesn’t do anything with scriptsizemultiplier. Maybe it
should or have some way to implement this for accessibility
NS: [ACTION] I’ll check what low-vision people are using these days; maybe
they don’t use Chrome, say.
----
Mstyle mathvariant inheritance and mi #204
<https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/204>/#1
<https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/1> (comment by Neil to
remove mathvariant on mstyle)
NS: could be the last ‘needs resolution’ item
NS: Fred’s forcing onto token elements is a bit of implementation
complication
NS: Discussion starts at
https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/1#issuecomment-675725381
MS: The following MathML turns off math italic
<?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?>
<mml:math xmlns:mml="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" display="block"
mathvariant="normal">
<mml:mi>E</mml:mi>
<mml:mo>=</mml:mo>
<mml:mi>m</mml:mi>
<mml:msup>
<mml:mi>c</mml:mi>
<mml:mn>2</mml:mn>
</mml:msup>
</mml:math>
BM: I don’t see any compelling reason, but if it’s hard to implement
NS: technically mathvariant doesn’t need to be there; but it allows the
power to screw things up
DC: there are useful cases; e.g. when you want to put sans-serif is being
used, in TeX you out \mathff around things; but to convert to MathML is
more difficult
MS: I just put mathvariant=normal on the math tag and it turned all math
italic off; that could be useful
BK:
BM: we shouldn’t confuse what we can do with what you should do
<<<
NS; consensus :’Keep mathvariant on mstyle’
BK Fred on May 22 in issue 204 seems to have something about universal
selectors ; now it’s unclear what is intended.
NS: I hope the tests are testing what ‘faceless2’ (mike B..) wanted
BK:
WPT relevant tests are at:
https://wpt.fyi/results/mathml/relations/css-styling?label=experimental&label=master&aligned
[PI stops trying to minute]
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.
www.avg.com
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
Received on Tuesday, 29 September 2020 17:57:23 UTC