Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Paul,

let me put this into two simple statements:

1) There is no canonical ordering of triples

2) A good triple editor should reflect this by letting the user determine the order

Regards,

Michael Brunnbauer

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 03:50:33PM +0100, Michael Brunnbauer wrote:
> 
> Hello Paul,
> 
> I am not so sure if this is good enough. If you add something to the end of a
> list in a UI, you normally expect it to stay there. If you accept that it
> will be put in its proper position later, you may - as user - still have
> trouble figuring out where that position is (even with the heuristics you gave).
> 
> The problem repeats with the triple object if the properties have been ordered.
> As user, you might feel even more compelled to introduce a deviant ordering on
> this level.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael Brunnbauer
> 
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 09:07:37AM -0500, Paul Houle wrote:
> > There are quite a few simple heuristics that will give "good enough"
> > results,  consider for instance:
> > 
> > (1) order predicates by alphabetical order (by rdfs:label or by localname
> > or the whole URL)
> > (2) order predicates by some numerical property given by a custom predicate
> > in the schema
> > (3) order predicates by the type of the domain alphabetically, and then
> > order by the name of the predicates
> > (4) work out the partial ordering of types by inheritance so "Person" winds
> > up at the top and "Actor" shows up below that
> > 
> > Freebase does something like (4) and that is "good enough".
> > 
> > On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > On 2/19/15 4:52 AM, Michael Brunnbauer wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello Paul,
> > >>
> > >> an interesting aspect of such a system is the ordering of triples - even
> > >> if you restrict editing to one subject. Either the order is predefined
> > >> and the
> > >> user will have to search for his new triple after doing an insert or the
> > >> user
> > >> determines the position of his new triple.
> > >>
> > >> In the latter case, the app developer will want to use something like
> > >> reification - at least internally. This is the point when the app
> > >> developer
> > >> and the Semantic Web expert start to disagree ;-)
> > >>
> > >
> > > Not really, in regards to "Semantic Web expert starting to disagree" per
> > > se. You can order by Predicate or use Reification.
> > >
> > > When designing our RDF Editor, we took the route of breaking things down
> > > as follows:
> > >
> > > Book (Named Graph Collection e.g. in a Quad Store or service that
> > > understands LDP Containers etc..)  --> (contains) --> Pages (Named Graphs)
> > > -- Paragraphs (RDF Sentence/Statement Collections).
> > >
> > > The Sentence/Statement Collections are the key item, you are honing into,
> > > and yes, it boils down to:
> > >
> > > 1. Grouping sentences/statements by predicate per named graph to create a
> > > paragraph
> > > 2. Grouping sentences by way of reification where each sentence is
> > > identified and described per named graph.
> > >
> > > Rather that pit one approach against the other, we simply adopted both, as
> > > options.
> > >
> > > Anyway, you raise a very important point that's generally overlooked.
> > > Ignoring this fundamental point is a shortcut to hell for any editor that's
> > > to be used in a multi-user setup, as you clearly understand :)
> > >
> > >
> > > Kingsley
> > >
> > >
> > >> Maybe they can compromise on a system with a separate named graph per
> > >> triple
> > >> (BTW what is the status of blank nodes shared between named graphs?).
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >>
> > >> Michael Brunnbauer
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 03:08:33PM -0500, Paul Houle wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I am looking at some cases where I have databases that are similar to
> > >>> Dbpedia and Freebase in character,  sometimes that big (ok,  those
> > >>> particular databases),   sometimes smaller.  Right now there are no blank
> > >>> nodes,  perhaps there are things like the "compound value types" from
> > >>> Freebase which are sorta like blank nodes but they have names,
> > >>>
> > >>> Sometimes I want to manually edit a few records.  Perhaps I want to
> > >>> delete
> > >>> a triple or add a few triples (possibly introducing a new subject.)
> > >>>
> > >>> It seems to me there could be some kind of system which points at a
> > >>> SPARQL
> > >>> protocol endpoint (so I can keep my data in my favorite triple store) and
> > >>> given an RDFS or OWL schema,  automatically generates the forms so I can
> > >>> easily edit the data.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is there something out there?
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Paul Houle
> > >>> Expert on Freebase, DBpedia, Hadoop and RDF
> > >>> (607) 539 6254    paul.houle on Skype   ontology2@gmail.com
> > >>> http://legalentityidentifier.info/lei/lookup
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Kingsley Idehen
> > > Founder & CEO
> > > OpenLink Software
> > > Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
> > > Personal Weblog 1: http://kidehen.blogspot.com
> > > Personal Weblog 2: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
> > > Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen
> > > Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
> > > LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
> > > Personal WebID: http://kingsley.idehen.net/dataspace/person/kidehen#this
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Paul Houle
> > Expert on Freebase, DBpedia, Hadoop and RDF
> > (607) 539 6254    paul.houle on Skype   ontology2@gmail.com
> > http://legalentityidentifier.info/lei/lookup
> 
> -- 
> ++  Michael Brunnbauer
> ++  netEstate GmbH
> ++  Geisenhausener Straße 11a
> ++  81379 München
> ++  Tel +49 89 32 19 77 80
> ++  Fax +49 89 32 19 77 89 
> ++  E-Mail brunni@netestate.de
> ++  http://www.netestate.de/
> ++
> ++  Sitz: München, HRB Nr.142452 (Handelsregister B München)
> ++  USt-IdNr. DE221033342
> ++  Geschäftsführer: Michael Brunnbauer, Franz Brunnbauer
> ++  Prokurist: Dipl. Kfm. (Univ.) Markus Hendel



-- 
++  Michael Brunnbauer
++  netEstate GmbH
++  Geisenhausener Straße 11a
++  81379 München
++  Tel +49 89 32 19 77 80
++  Fax +49 89 32 19 77 89 
++  E-Mail brunni@netestate.de
++  http://www.netestate.de/
++
++  Sitz: München, HRB Nr.142452 (Handelsregister B München)
++  USt-IdNr. DE221033342
++  Geschäftsführer: Michael Brunnbauer, Franz Brunnbauer
++  Prokurist: Dipl. Kfm. (Univ.) Markus Hendel