W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-lod@w3.org > July 2009

Re: looking for an event ontology/vocabulary

From: Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:09:25 -0500
Cc: David Canos <davidcanos@gmail.com>, public-lod <public-lod@w3.org>
Message-Id: <62799948-5967-4FB3-8CBF-7C4F74CB7629@ihmc.us>
To: Yves Raimond <yves.raimond@gmail.com>

On Jul 29, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Yves Raimond wrote:

> Hello!
>
>> Indeed. However, it suffers from one glaring defect, which may  
>> simply be a
>> problem of documentation: i does not explain its terms. In  
>> particular, it
>> refers to a 'factor' of an event, without anywhere saying anything,  
>> either
>> in the axioms or in the documentation, to explain what this strange  
>> term is
>> supposed to mean. It is not normal English usage to refer to a  
>> 'factor' of
>> an event, so ordinary English usage is no guide. The documentation at
>> http://motools.sourceforge.net/event/event.html#term_Factor
>> says  an event:Factor is 'everything used as a factor in an event',  
>> which is
>> completely useless as it provides no explanatory information  
>> whatsoever. If
>> an explanation of event:Foodle was that it described all the  
>> foodles of an
>> event, that would be similarly useless as documentation. Can you  
>> say WHAT
>> YOU MEAN by a 'factor'? If that is too much to ask, can you give some
>> EXAMPLES both of factors and of non-factors of an event?
>
> Wow. No need to shout!!!!

Sorry. You pressed one my buttons. I am so fed up reading  
'documentation' along the lines of "A frongleBlitz" is any blitz with  
a frongle". It is just irresponsible to write such stuff when putting  
forward something that is claimed to be an ontology, especially one  
that is touted as being generally useful.

>
> Anyway, yes, the documentation is not particularly good, for the only
> reason that most people got it from the examples (which is apparently
> wrong or not enough, then?) and so we didn't got the incentive to
> write a better one.

The incentive should have been part of the initial publication.

> Among those examples, you have:
>
> * A score in a musical performance
> * A musical instrument in a musical performance

OK, but how about the concert hall in a musical performance? The  
conductor of a musical performance? The seating used by the musician  
in a musical performance? Im guessing these are not factors, but why  
not?

> * A piece of text in a reading
> * A microphone in a recording
>
> The disjoint statement between agent and factor defines factors as
> something that doesn't have an active role in the event.

But are necessary for the event to take place? Or play a significant  
role in the event, so that if they were not present, the event would  
have been different? Or something?

> Sorry it
> isn't reflected in the html doc (yes, my small specgen script doesn't
> capture everything).
>
> Also, we are perfectly open for improvements, so if you have any
> suggestions for improvement or better description of terms, feel free.

How can I define your terms when I don't know what they are supposed  
to mean? And really, I don't. From the examples I can think of several  
possible meanings, but I have no way to know which might be what you  
intend. Until we all become telepathic, you are the only person who  
can document your ideas so that others can use them.

Pat Hayes

> There is even an open SVN (motools project on Sourceforge, in the
> event subdirectory), where you can directly commit stuff.
>
> There are also a bit more details in my thesis.
>
> Best,
> y
>
>> It is not enough to
>> only give examples, as this does not help the reader understand the  
>> limits
>> of your conceptual idea. For example, can something be both and  
>> agent and a
>> factor in an event? (Can you say, briefly, why or why not?) And so  
>> on. I
>> know this is not easy, and it may be impossible to give a  
>> 'definition' of
>> the term, but surely you can give SOME guidance to the user, if you  
>> are
>> claiming that this is so simple and obvious to use in such a wide  
>> range of
>> applications.
>>
>>> and has been used in quite a
>>> variety of context already, from music data to activities data.  
>>> Also,
>>> it is really simple, so really easy to grasp and extend.
>>
>> RIght now it is impossible to grasp, and I would have no confidence  
>> that any
>> two extensions would be consistent.
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
>>> If you want
>>> example of last.fm events described using this ontology, take a look
>>> at the recommended events in the http://dbtune.org/last-fm/ wrapper.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> y
>>>
>>>> thanks in advance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> IHMC                                     (850)434 8903 or (650)494  
>> 3973
>> 40 South Alcaniz St.           (850)202 4416   office
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------
IHMC                                     (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973
40 South Alcaniz St.           (850)202 4416   office
Pensacola                            (850)202 4440   fax
FL 32502                              (850)291 0667   mobile
phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
Received on Wednesday, 29 July 2009 19:10:23 UTC

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