Re: is linked data about RDF or EAV or just structured data?

On 8/7/12 12:52 PM, Arnaud Le Hors wrote:
> Reza,
>
> I think we would gain from setting some common terminology we all use 
> consistently so we can better understand each other.
>
> It seems that when you write "RDF" you mean the RDF/XML format, is 
> that correct?
>
> When I say RDF, I mean the RDF data model, which can be serialized 
> using a variety of formats, including RDF/XML, Turtle, and others.
> I think this is consistent with the way the W3C uses the term, even 
> though it's true that many still confuses RDF and RDF/XML because of 
> the initial introduction of RDF via the RDF/XML format.
>
> This being said, the charter is clear about the dependency on RDF - 
> the data model -, while recognizing the existence of the various 
> formats. In that context, the RDF WG is working on a JSON format for 
> RDF and I certainly expect the LDP to allow for the use of that format.
>
> At the same time, I don't expect this WG to try and define a ubber 
> platform that would address all possible data models.

Yes, but how does that define Linked Data with clarity? This is a Linked 
Data oriented workgroup and the definition of Linked Data is being 
conflated with the definition of RDF.

You can make Linked Data from RDF if the URIs used in S-P-O triples are 
de-refrencable such that a URI resolves to a resource that describes its 
referent. Basically you must have:

1. URI based name (denotation) for an entity
2. A document that describes the named entity via S-P-O triple based content
3. A URI that denotes the document above
4. Use of indirection (explicit or implicit) to ensure a URI resolves to 
the content of the description document.

Unfortunately, conflating RDF and Linked Data ultimately alienates folks 
for a myriad of reasons, most of which are simply political -- going 
back many years to the initial introduction of RDF.

The problems I mention above are fixable, it simply requires loose 
coupling of  Linked Data and RDF when defining what Linked Data actually 
is etc..

Loose coupling of Linked Data and RDF doesn't adversely affect either. 
It also nullifies the distracting political baggage that RDF brings to 
the Linked Data meme.

If TimBL assumed RDF == Linked Data or that RDF was the only route to 
Linked Data he would have made that claim in his original meme, but he 
didn't.

I hope this helps.

Kingsley
>
> I hope that helps.
> --
> Arnaud  Le Hors - Co-chair of the LDP WG
>
>
>
>
> From: "Reza B'Far (Oracle)" <reza.bfar@oracle.com>
> To: public-ldp-wg@w3.org,
> Date: 08/07/2012 08:40 AM
> Subject: Re: is linked data about RDF or EAV or just structured data?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Arnaud -
>
> Thanks for clarifying the W3C procedures.  Questions -
> 1. When I read the charter, it is not clear that anything outside of 
> RDF is explicitly excluded.  For example, it is not clear that you 
> could not use JSON, simply that RDF must be an option.  Are you saying 
> that usage of RDF is explicitly made the goal by charter and that 
> similar representations of triples must be explicitly forbidden to be 
> used with the standard?
> 2. If the discussion is about RDF being optional versus required, I 
> don't see that at odds with the charter.  Can you please clarify?
>
> Clearly, forming another working group or community group is not 
> productive.  So, the way I'm reading your email, in a more straight 
> forward way, it means that "welcome, you're new and don't understand 
> that we're already far enough that we're requiring RDF to be part of 
> the standard".  I'm fine with that.  I just want to understand it very 
> clearly that the charter is explicitly excluding other representations 
> of triples, etc. than RDF. and that, furthermore, the charter requires 
> usage of mechanisms in RDF to build the specific requirements in 
> Linked Data.
>
> Your clarification is appreciated.
>
> Regards.
>
>
> On 8/7/12 8:03 AM, Arnaud Le Hors wrote:
> Hi Reza,
>
> I'm not sure what exactly you'd like to vote on but I'd like to remind 
> everyone of a few procedural points:
>
> 1. W3C thrives to build consensus. For that reason, decisions are only 
> made by votes as a last resort, which isn't to say that we can't have 
> polls to get a feeling of where people stand.
>
> 2. WGs aren't at liberty to redefine their scope. No vote can change 
> that other than that of the Advisory Council after due process.
>
> The LDP charter is clear about the fact the Linked Data Platform this 
> WG is to define is about RDF, using IBM's submission as the starting 
> point. [1]
>
> So, while I find the discussion interesting, I have to say that If 
> some of you are interested in defining a higher level type of platform 
> that is independent of the RDF data model you should look to start a 
> different group. The W3C now provides for Community Groups [2] that 
> can be easily started.
>
> Regards.
>
> [1] _http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/charter_
> [2] _http://www.w3.org/community/about/#cg_
> --
> Arnaud  Le Hors - Co-chair of the LDP WG
>
>
> "Reza B'far" _<reza.bfar@oracle.com>_ 
> <mailto:reza.bfar@oracle.com>wrote on 08/07/2012 07:40:06 AM:
>
> > From: "Reza B'far" _<reza.bfar@oracle.com>_ 
> <mailto:reza.bfar@oracle.com>
> > To: "Wilde, Erik" _<Erik.Wilde@emc.com>_ <mailto:Erik.Wilde@emc.com>,
> > Cc: _"public-ldp-wg@w3.org"_ 
> <mailto:public-ldp-wg@w3.org>_<public-ldp-wg@w3.org>_ 
> <mailto:public-ldp-wg@w3.org>, Kingsley Idehen
> > _<kidehen@openlinksw.com>_ <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>
> > Date: 08/07/2012 07:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: is linked data about RDF or EAV or just structured data?
> >
> > Folks
> >
> > How about we put some of these to vote as individual axioms?  So, of
> > the group agrees, I'll send out individual proposals for axioms that
> > will have 1-2 sentences and folks can vote with the traditional +1/-1/0?
> >
> > I think such axioms can give us the proper technical constraints
> > around the use-cases if approved
> >
> > Best
> >
> > On Aug 7, 2012, at 7:30 AM, "Wilde, Erik" _<Erik.Wilde@emc.com>_ 
> <mailto:Erik.Wilde@emc.com>wrote:
> >
> > > hello kingsley.
> > >
> > > On 2012-08-07 16:17 , "Kingsley Idehen" _<kidehen@openlinksw.com>_ 
> <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>wrote:
> > >> Modulo RDF re. your comments above, since it isn't a format, a media
> > >> type still boils down to an entity-attribute-value or attribute=value
> > >> structure i.e., 3-tuple or 2-tuple. It just documents the fact in 
> prose
> > >> as part of the mime type.
> > >
> > > i really don' understand how you get to this conclusion. look at 
> the IETF
> > > registry of media types and you'll see an amazingly wide array of all
> > > kinds of models and metamodels people have registered. you find trees,
> > > maybe jeni has even bothered to register her LMNL "overlapping tree"
> > > format, and all kinds of more generalized or more specialized data 
> models.
> > > what brings you to the conclusion that media types are in one of 
> these two
> > > simple classes you are listing? the media type world is so much more
> > > colorful than that.
> > >
> > > i guess i'll stop wasting mailing list bandwidth for now, since you're
> > > going to be on vacation and nobody else seems to get engaged in this
> > > debate anyway. i am still failing to see, though, where those 
> assertions
> > > you are making are coming from, and for my personal vocabulary 
> management,
> > > i'll conclude that
> > >
> > > - there is the "Linked Data is based on RDF" perspective which is 
> shared
> > > by most people, then
> > > - there's the "linked data is just data that's linked on the web"
> > > perspective of ashok that i also had for a while, and then
> > > - there's your "Linked Data is not RDF, but EAV" perspective, that 
> is not
> > > something i had heard of before.
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > >
> > > dret.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>


-- 

Regards,

Kingsley Idehen	
Founder & CEO
OpenLink Software
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