Re: AR Web

Hi, I thought I'd mention Keith's recent implementation/article in regards
to 3D and HTML:
https://keithclark.co.uk/articles/3d-models-in-html-documents/

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 06:02 Josh Carpenter, <joshcarpenter@google.com> wrote:

> Moreover custom elements require a prefix:
> https://www.webcomponents.org/community/articles/how-should-i-name-my-element
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 9:53 PM Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 9:20 PM kevin curry <kmcurry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Glad to be on the same page. Your markup example definitely makes clear
>>> sense to me
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_kevincurry_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=O8S5EwUfDNs5iuePSaiv1-bHGY8C42oEx4FkBKz27ZY&s=Qi7JTxoKPjmiyM52E9qu7JlsA0UzxmTxtV0fw3br0gs&e=>
>>> in that context.
>>>
>>> By the way, why not ditch the ml- prefix? FBX describes the model's
>>> format and <model src="..."> should be understood by anything that can
>>> render FBX, just like <img src="..."> can render JPG, PNG, etc. The ml-
>>> prefix inhibits interoperability
>>>
>>
>> The element names are created by our JavaScript library. They are not
>> meant to be standardized and are not part of the browser code. (See
>> See my question in
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-immersive-web/2018Aug/0071.html
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:13 PM Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:10 PM kevin curry <kmcurry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I do. There were many examples of what Pete referenced, and they were
>>>>> all bad. The serious, short answer is evolution. What you are talking about
>>>>> now, Rik, is no longer the same as what Pete referenced. I think hardware,
>>>>> perhaps in AR specifically, is the strongest influence. But the scenario
>>>>> was thought about differently then that what I think you mean now. Then it
>>>>> was to figure out: how can we get our existing (2D) tools, like web
>>>>> browsers/pages into our 3D space? Eventually it assumed all of the
>>>>> functionality of browsers. I mean explicitly, we implemented web browsers
>>>>> (and other 2D tools) inside 3D worlds. What I think you mean now, Rik, is
>>>>> an evolved scenario, enabled by much improved AR hardware, handshaking
>>>>> standards, and possibly some re usability of HTML/CSS between the page and
>>>>> an augmented space. I'm thinking about it like this - I could be way off:
>>>>> I'm looking at my phone at a model on Sketchfab. I put on Magic Leap and I
>>>>> look at the web page. The model I'm looking at in Sketchfab on by browser
>>>>> is now in the room in front of me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Correct.
>>>> For instance, take this small example of HTML from Prismatic:
>>>>
>>>> <ml-model src="whale.fbx"
>>>>
>>>>    style="width:300px; height:300px"
>>>>
>>>>    z-offset="500px"> </ml-model>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ml-model is a custom element that is laid out like any regular DOM
>>>> element. Prismatic will then load and display 'whale.fbx' in the exact
>>>> location of that element but floating 500px in front of it and sized to the
>>>> CSS box.
>>>> When the element scrolls, the model will scroll along with it. If the
>>>> element scrolls out of view, the model will disappear.
>>>>
>>>> This is indeed the reverse of what some people have been working on.
>>>> (Bring web browsers into 3D)
>>>> It's conceptually much simpler since we rely on established browser
>>>> interactions and UI. I believe this also solves a lot of security problems.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:52 PM Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 2:49 PM Pete Markiewicz <
>>>>>> pindiespace@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd have to say - this has already been tried. About 10 years ago,
>>>>>>> there was a browser (Australian company, but I can't remember the name)
>>>>>>> that specifically levitated standard HTML elements into the third
>>>>>>> dimension. Went nowhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you remember why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Josh Carpenter <
>>>>>>> joshcarpenter@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Is it HTML elements in VR that is dead, or decomposable content
>>>>>>>> in a regular web page? (or both?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Specifically we were investigating the ability to  take a
>>>>>>>> traditional 2D HTML/CSS page, loaded in a XR viewing context (eg VR HMD),
>>>>>>>> and progressively enhance it into a 3D composition, by using styles (eg 3D
>>>>>>>> transforms) to position flat ements in 3D space, beyond the bounds of the
>>>>>>>> parent window.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The was part of a broader push to explore composable, declarative
>>>>>>>> XR web layout standards. Distinct from imperative WebXR / WebGL.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s not “dead” per se, as it wasn’t ever really alive. Aside from
>>>>>>>> some very cool prototypes built on Firefox by my MozVR colleagues back in
>>>>>>>> 2015 (code that, AFAIK, was never merged to master).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rather, in the past six months our squad has deemed this approach
>>>>>>>> probably too hard to be worth pursuing, relative to other approaches closer
>>>>>>>> to what we’re talking about in this thread.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 8:15 PM Rik Cabanier <
>>>>>>>> rcabanier@magicleap.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 2:54 PM Josh Carpenter <
>>>>>>>>> joshcarpenter@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You might find those links I posted in my initial response
>>>>>>>>>> interesting, John. I was for a while very enamored with the idea of being
>>>>>>>>>> able to break page layouts into compositions in 3D space by leveraging CSS
>>>>>>>>>> 3D transforms. At Moz and Google we built some prototypes that, to my
>>>>>>>>>> satisfaction at least, demonstrated that the approach was easy for a
>>>>>>>>>> relatively experienced web designer/dev to work with, and surprisingly
>>>>>>>>>> compelling/fun. Turn a Vimeo video into a 60 ft screen in VR with a few
>>>>>>>>>> lines of CSS :) The framework that Diego Marcos and team built to help
>>>>>>>>>> enable to experiments at Moz was actually a forerunner of A-Frame in some
>>>>>>>>>> ways. But more recently, based on cumulative discussions with browser
>>>>>>>>>> engine people, we’ve come to believe that approach would be extremely hard
>>>>>>>>>> to make work in existing engines, at web scale, and that the much better
>>>>>>>>>> place to start is composable models in 2D compositions. That’s not to say
>>>>>>>>>> the dream of HTML elements in 3D space is dead, but more back burnered, at
>>>>>>>>>> least in my team’s thinking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is it HTML elements in VR that is dead, or decomposable content in
>>>>>>>>> a regular web page? (or both?)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can see that bringing HTML in VR would have a lot of landmines
>>>>>>>>> around security and privacy but decomposable content should not be affected.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 2:30 PM John D. Gwinner <john@gwinner.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Is there a group that is currently working on extending
>>>>>>>>>>> regular web pages with 3D content?<<
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I had an idea a while ago about extending Wordpress pages into
>>>>>>>>>>> 3D objects; sort of "spreading" the page around in 3D space, but that's
>>>>>>>>>>> about all I've done so far. It would suddenly inject a lot of default
>>>>>>>>>>> content into the world. Sort of a "Minority Report" API (how I explain it
>>>>>>>>>>> to Hollywood types).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I had a (traditional) publisher that wanted me to cover
>>>>>>>>>>> WordPress alongside A-Frame and React in my second book (I wrote the book
>>>>>>>>>>> "Getting Started with React VR[now 360]", but the acquisition editor
>>>>>>>>>>> insisted on WordPress being covered in the second VR book "because it was
>>>>>>>>>>> another one of the larger web API's."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It did get me to thinking ... there could be something to that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> == John ==
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2018 3:23 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* public-immersive-web@w3.org
>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* AR Web
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> last week at Magic Leap we released our browser Helio.
>>>>>>>>>>> You can find an overview here:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.magicleap.com/experiences/helio
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As part of its feature set, we created a set of extensions that
>>>>>>>>>>> allows authors to create and manipulate 3D objects such as animated models
>>>>>>>>>>> and textures. It also allows extraction so content can be pulled out of the
>>>>>>>>>>> browser and placed in the user's environment.
>>>>>>>>>>> To make development easy, we created a library called
>>>>>>>>>>> "Prismatic" that provides a simple declarative syntax.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We'd like to iterate on our current approach with others vendors
>>>>>>>>>>> and work towards an open standard that works on 2D, AR and VR devices.
>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the current community and working groups but
>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't find one that covers our current use case.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My questions are:
>>>>>>>>>>> - Is there a group that is currently working on extending
>>>>>>>>>>> regular web pages with 3D content?
>>>>>>>>>>> - If not, is anyone interested in working with us on this?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Please let me know if you want more details on our current
>>>>>>>>>>> implementation. I'm happy to explain.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>   Rik
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Josh Carpenter
>>>>>>>>>> UX Lead, WebVR/AR
>>>>>>>>>> Google
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Josh Carpenter
>>>>>>>> UX Lead, WebVR/AR
>>>>>>>> Google
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>> =================
>>>>>>> *Dr. Pete Markiewicz*
>>>>>>> *Email:* pindiespace@gmail.com
>>>>>>> *Portfolio:* http://plyojump.com
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__plyojump.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=nobtEJABlN9Iwgv1wZHv3x1KQW1gph6BYfhjhVSBZqU&e=>
>>>>>>> *Github:* http://github.com/pindiespace
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__github.com_pindiespace&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=Z0jsSqLhFmC7A5JRUAFpZPA8Zk46-mDNMFv0cCUs8Rw&e=>
>>>>>>> *Linkedin:* http://linkedin.com/in/pindiespace
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__linkedin.com_in_pindiespace&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=z7u1c_tGQ_eUu7qlhnyg9fVfqm0wrWzU-KWE3RnNbSQ&e=>
>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>> =================
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *My "Ux in VR" presentations on Google Docs (note you can
>>>>>>> comment)WebVR 1.0
>>>>>>> APIhttps://docs.google.com/presentation/d/13a29m0SbpTeItFP8fjrSoKNb7nsjAd4DC9lWnokWEfg/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/13a29m0SbpTeItFP8fjrSoKNb7nsjAd4DC9lWnokWEfg/edit?usp=sharing>Sustainable
>>>>>>> Ux in
>>>>>>> VRhttps://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OTXaz3RuV0HWgM754PRMUC7d2KYVHH974s5hnAt53wk/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OTXaz3RuV0HWgM754PRMUC7d2KYVHH974s5hnAt53wk/edit?usp=sharing>Sustainable
>>>>>>> virtual design blog:* http://sustainablevirtualdesign.wordpress.com
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__sustainablevirtualdesign.wordpress.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=4fBaHb4RVGTcTLSqhOU-NPYCp_dTpdHG6Vvs8bUf8iA&e=>
>>>>>>> *Sustainability template:* http://greenboilerplate.com
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__greenboilerplate.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=cguDi-PU8IsqSt9ZxuAekf6srqpLfGK6Vn7KKlaS4rw&e=>
>>>>>>> *Sustainable Ux in Virtual Reality for Sustainable Ux 2017
>>>>>>> (narrated): *
>>>>>>> *https://youtu.be/bU0tz05lcBw
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_bU0tz05lcBw&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=A6efN4akNQhNM7TkafUQ2p0eWVtPSP7uqCNHjYE8KrM&e=>*
>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>> =================
>>>>>>> *Buy my book! *- Millennials and the Popular Culture
>>>>>>> *Lifecourse:* http://www.lifecourse.com/store/catalog/lca/mpc.html
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.lifecourse.com_store_catalog_lca_mpc.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=p0tcO1bSH_pIRmNicqE11Uz4PKOCTbGqIzXbR-X9GRY&e=>
>>>>>>> *Amazon Author Page:*
>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Pete-Markiewicz/e/B0069VZ7BG/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_2
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Pete-2DMarkiewicz_e_B0069VZ7BG_ref-3Dntt-5Fathr-5Fdp-5Fpel-5Fpop-5F2&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=RvaiOQ2Ib9e2n8Gsd0CxAAdW8x7G_yVPkXecG-eOkmc&e=>
>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>> =================
>>>>>>> *On that page, see my DARPA Grand Challenge 2005 entry video, "Team
>>>>>>> Robomonster":*
>>>>>>> *Team Robomonster *(DARPA 2005 Grand Challenge):
>>>>>>> http://robotsthatjump.wordpress.com/category/team-robomonster/
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__robotsthatjump.wordpress.com_category_team-2Drobomonster_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=S8fL7YyqlvRUht4RglLbMH2vcNwcc47nmaYJKmDxeGY&e=>
>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>> =================
>>>>>>> *Indiespace *(1st to sell downloaded music, March 1994):
>>>>>>> http://www.indiespace.com
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.indiespace.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=TG1xR_YjrzgJDWlPwR448gLGBvTf8J9gV7xUCgstioo&e=>.
>>>>>>> Also see http://archive.org
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__archive.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=nIEqooDQSb6JeBaIGZW-pjiJdTw7nkDXAyHn2I-YJ5I&e=>
>>>>>>>  under
>>>>>>> "Kspace.com" 1996 for our original site.
>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>> =================
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
> Josh Carpenter
> UX Lead, WebVR/AR
> Google
>