- From: Pete Markiewicz <pindiespace@gmail.com>
- Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 17:29:33 -0700
- To: kevin curry <kmcurry@gmail.com>
- Cc: Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>, Josh Carpenter <joshcarpenter@google.com>, "John D. Gwinner" <john@gwinner.org>, public-immersive-web@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CACx4u8nvJm3UpvrHZJR-Gkd2ZZdy-N09KR-uvF30TPtR6=coeA@mail.gmail.com>
I don't want to derail more off-topic, so my last post. My point is that HTML is semantically designed, rather than 2D layout - the page elements are related by Information Architecture rather than layout. Unless the 3D scene maps those semantic element in a non-trivial way, use cases will be limited (navigation for people with disabilities?). And yes, this is a problem for all of VR/AR. Kevin's comment about evolution is excellent - it speaks to a new markup specification that is progressive across augmented spaces (like Arturo's image on unboring.net https://unboring.net/workflows/progressive-enhancement/ ). Simple dimensional jumps may have unexpected value, but not automatically so. esp. if we take a Ux and semantic markup approach. On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:10 PM, kevin curry <kmcurry@gmail.com> wrote: > I do. There were many examples of what Pete referenced, and they were all > bad. The serious, short answer is evolution. What you are talking about > now, Rik, is no longer the same as what Pete referenced. I think hardware, > perhaps in AR specifically, is the strongest influence. But the scenario > was thought about differently then that what I think you mean now. Then it > was to figure out: how can we get our existing (2D) tools, like web > browsers/pages into our 3D space? Eventually it assumed all of the > functionality of browsers. I mean explicitly, we implemented web browsers > (and other 2D tools) inside 3D worlds. What I think you mean now, Rik, is > an evolved scenario, enabled by much improved AR hardware, handshaking > standards, and possibly some re usability of HTML/CSS between the page and > an augmented space. I'm thinking about it like this - I could be way off: > I'm looking at my phone at a model on Sketchfab. I put on Magic Leap and I > look at the web page. The model I'm looking at in Sketchfab on by browser > is now in the room in front of me. > > On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:52 PM Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com> > wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 2:49 PM Pete Markiewicz <pindiespace@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I'd have to say - this has already been tried. About 10 years ago, there >>> was a browser (Australian company, but I can't remember the name) that >>> specifically levitated standard HTML elements into the third dimension. >>> Went nowhere. >>> >> >> Do you remember why? >> >> >>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Josh Carpenter < >>> joshcarpenter@google.com> wrote: >>> >>>> > Is it HTML elements in VR that is dead, or decomposable content in a >>>> regular web page? (or both?) >>>> >>>> Specifically we were investigating the ability to take a traditional >>>> 2D HTML/CSS page, loaded in a XR viewing context (eg VR HMD), and >>>> progressively enhance it into a 3D composition, by using styles (eg 3D >>>> transforms) to position flat ements in 3D space, beyond the bounds of the >>>> parent window. >>>> >>>> The was part of a broader push to explore composable, declarative XR >>>> web layout standards. Distinct from imperative WebXR / WebGL. >>>> >>>> It’s not “dead” per se, as it wasn’t ever really alive. Aside from some >>>> very cool prototypes built on Firefox by my MozVR colleagues back in 2015 >>>> (code that, AFAIK, was never merged to master). >>>> >>>> Rather, in the past six months our squad has deemed this approach >>>> probably too hard to be worth pursuing, relative to other approaches closer >>>> to what we’re talking about in this thread. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 8:15 PM Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 2:54 PM Josh Carpenter < >>>>> joshcarpenter@google.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> You might find those links I posted in my initial response >>>>>> interesting, John. I was for a while very enamored with the idea of being >>>>>> able to break page layouts into compositions in 3D space by leveraging CSS >>>>>> 3D transforms. At Moz and Google we built some prototypes that, to my >>>>>> satisfaction at least, demonstrated that the approach was easy for a >>>>>> relatively experienced web designer/dev to work with, and surprisingly >>>>>> compelling/fun. Turn a Vimeo video into a 60 ft screen in VR with a few >>>>>> lines of CSS :) The framework that Diego Marcos and team built to help >>>>>> enable to experiments at Moz was actually a forerunner of A-Frame in some >>>>>> ways. But more recently, based on cumulative discussions with browser >>>>>> engine people, we’ve come to believe that approach would be extremely hard >>>>>> to make work in existing engines, at web scale, and that the much better >>>>>> place to start is composable models in 2D compositions. That’s not to say >>>>>> the dream of HTML elements in 3D space is dead, but more back burnered, at >>>>>> least in my team’s thinking. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is it HTML elements in VR that is dead, or decomposable content in a >>>>> regular web page? (or both?) >>>>> >>>>> I can see that bringing HTML in VR would have a lot of landmines >>>>> around security and privacy but decomposable content should not be affected. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 2:30 PM John D. Gwinner <john@gwinner.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>Is there a group that is currently working on extending regular >>>>>>> web pages with 3D content?<< >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had an idea a while ago about extending Wordpress pages into 3D >>>>>>> objects; sort of "spreading" the page around in 3D space, but that's about >>>>>>> all I've done so far. It would suddenly inject a lot of default content >>>>>>> into the world. Sort of a "Minority Report" API (how I explain it to >>>>>>> Hollywood types). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had a (traditional) publisher that wanted me to cover WordPress >>>>>>> alongside A-Frame and React in my second book (I wrote the book "Getting >>>>>>> Started with React VR[now 360]", but the acquisition editor insisted on >>>>>>> WordPress being covered in the second VR book "because it was another one >>>>>>> of the larger web API's." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It did get me to thinking ... there could be something to that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> == John == >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> *From:* Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2018 3:23 PM >>>>>>> *To:* public-immersive-web@w3.org >>>>>>> *Subject:* AR Web >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> last week at Magic Leap we released our browser Helio. >>>>>>> You can find an overview here: https://www.magicleap. >>>>>>> com/experiences/helio >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As part of its feature set, we created a set of extensions that >>>>>>> allows authors to create and manipulate 3D objects such as animated models >>>>>>> and textures. It also allows extraction so content can be pulled out of the >>>>>>> browser and placed in the user's environment. >>>>>>> To make development easy, we created a library called "Prismatic" >>>>>>> that provides a simple declarative syntax. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We'd like to iterate on our current approach with others vendors and >>>>>>> work towards an open standard that works on 2D, AR and VR devices. >>>>>>> I looked at the current community and working groups but couldn't >>>>>>> find one that covers our current use case. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My questions are: >>>>>>> - Is there a group that is currently working on extending regular >>>>>>> web pages with 3D content? >>>>>>> - If not, is anyone interested in working with us on this? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please let me know if you want more details on our current >>>>>>> implementation. I'm happy to explain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Rik >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Josh Carpenter >>>>>> UX Lead, WebVR/AR >>>>>> Google >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Josh Carpenter >>>> UX Lead, WebVR/AR >>>> Google >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ============================================================ >>> ================= >>> *Dr. Pete Markiewicz* >>> *Email:* pindiespace@gmail.com >>> *Portfolio:* http://plyojump.com >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__plyojump.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=nobtEJABlN9Iwgv1wZHv3x1KQW1gph6BYfhjhVSBZqU&e=> >>> *Github:* http://github.com/pindiespace >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__github.com_pindiespace&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=Z0jsSqLhFmC7A5JRUAFpZPA8Zk46-mDNMFv0cCUs8Rw&e=> >>> *Linkedin:* http://linkedin.com/in/pindiespace >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__linkedin.com_in_pindiespace&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=z7u1c_tGQ_eUu7qlhnyg9fVfqm0wrWzU-KWE3RnNbSQ&e=> >>> ============================================================ >>> ================= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *My "Ux in VR" presentations on Google Docs (note you can comment)WebVR >>> 1.0 >>> APIhttps://docs.google.com/presentation/d/13a29m0SbpTeItFP8fjrSoKNb7nsjAd4DC9lWnokWEfg/edit?usp=sharing >>> <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/13a29m0SbpTeItFP8fjrSoKNb7nsjAd4DC9lWnokWEfg/edit?usp=sharing>Sustainable >>> Ux in >>> VRhttps://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OTXaz3RuV0HWgM754PRMUC7d2KYVHH974s5hnAt53wk/edit?usp=sharing >>> <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OTXaz3RuV0HWgM754PRMUC7d2KYVHH974s5hnAt53wk/edit?usp=sharing>Sustainable >>> virtual design blog:* http://sustainablevirtualdesign.wordpress.com >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__sustainablevirtualdesign.wordpress.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=4fBaHb4RVGTcTLSqhOU-NPYCp_dTpdHG6Vvs8bUf8iA&e=> >>> *Sustainability template:* http://greenboilerplate.com >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__greenboilerplate.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=cguDi-PU8IsqSt9ZxuAekf6srqpLfGK6Vn7KKlaS4rw&e=> >>> *Sustainable Ux in Virtual Reality for Sustainable Ux 2017 (narrated): * >>> *https://youtu.be/bU0tz05lcBw >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_bU0tz05lcBw&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=A6efN4akNQhNM7TkafUQ2p0eWVtPSP7uqCNHjYE8KrM&e=>* >>> ============================================================ >>> ================= >>> *Buy my book! *- Millennials and the Popular Culture >>> *Lifecourse:* http://www.lifecourse.com/store/catalog/lca/mpc.html >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.lifecourse.com_store_catalog_lca_mpc.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=p0tcO1bSH_pIRmNicqE11Uz4PKOCTbGqIzXbR-X9GRY&e=> >>> *Amazon Author Page:* http://www.amazon.com/ >>> Pete-Markiewicz/e/B0069VZ7BG/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_2 >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Pete-2DMarkiewicz_e_B0069VZ7BG_ref-3Dntt-5Fathr-5Fdp-5Fpel-5Fpop-5F2&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=RvaiOQ2Ib9e2n8Gsd0CxAAdW8x7G_yVPkXecG-eOkmc&e=> >>> ============================================================ >>> ================= >>> *On that page, see my DARPA Grand Challenge 2005 entry video, "Team >>> Robomonster":* >>> *Team Robomonster *(DARPA 2005 Grand Challenge): >>> http://robotsthatjump.wordpress.com/category/team-robomonster/ >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__robotsthatjump.wordpress.com_category_team-2Drobomonster_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=S8fL7YyqlvRUht4RglLbMH2vcNwcc47nmaYJKmDxeGY&e=> >>> ============================================================ >>> ================= >>> *Indiespace *(1st to sell downloaded music, March 1994): >>> http://www.indiespace.com >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.indiespace.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=TG1xR_YjrzgJDWlPwR448gLGBvTf8J9gV7xUCgstioo&e=>. >>> Also see http://archive.org >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__archive.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=nIEqooDQSb6JeBaIGZW-pjiJdTw7nkDXAyHn2I-YJ5I&e=> >>> under >>> "Kspace.com" 1996 for our original site. >>> ============================================================ >>> ================= >>> >> -- ============================================================ ================= *Dr. Pete Markiewicz* *Email:* pindiespace@gmail.com *Portfolio:* http://plyojump.com *Github:* http://github.com/pindiespace *Linkedin:* http://linkedin.com/in/pindiespace ============================================================ ================= *My "Ux in VR" presentations on Google Docs (note you can comment)WebVR 1.0 APIhttps://docs.google.com/presentation/d/13a29m0SbpTeItFP8fjrSoKNb7nsjAd4DC9lWnokWEfg/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/13a29m0SbpTeItFP8fjrSoKNb7nsjAd4DC9lWnokWEfg/edit?usp=sharing>Sustainable Ux in VRhttps://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OTXaz3RuV0HWgM754PRMUC7d2KYVHH974s5hnAt53wk/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OTXaz3RuV0HWgM754PRMUC7d2KYVHH974s5hnAt53wk/edit?usp=sharing>Sustainable virtual design blog:* http://sustainablevirtualdesign.wordpress.com *Sustainability template:* http://greenboilerplate.com *Sustainable Ux in Virtual Reality for Sustainable Ux 2017 (narrated): * *https://youtu.be/bU0tz05lcBw <https://youtu.be/bU0tz05lcBw>* ============================================================ ================= *Buy my book! *- Millennials and the Popular Culture *Lifecourse:* http://www.lifecourse.com/store/catalog/lca/mpc.html *Amazon Author Page:* http://www.amazon.com/Pete-Markiewicz/e/B0069VZ7BG/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_2 ============================================================ ================= *On that page, see my DARPA Grand Challenge 2005 entry video, "Team Robomonster":* *Team Robomonster *(DARPA 2005 Grand Challenge): http://robotsthatjump.wordpress.com/category/team-robomonster/ ============================================================ ================= *Indiespace *(1st to sell downloaded music, March 1994): http://www.indiespace.com. Also see http://archive.org under "Kspace.com" 1996 for our original site. ============================================================ =================
Received on Tuesday, 21 August 2018 00:30:02 UTC