- From: Coralie Mercier <coralie@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:08:00 +0200
- To: Léonie Watson <lwatson@tetralogical.com>
- Cc: Inclusion and Diversity Community Group <public-idcg@w3.org>
Hi Léonie, all,
With clarification that the IDCG’s next step is to “recommend to the W3C Director” (to postpone publishing the statement), I have added the video to the online minutes of our dialogue:
https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-minutes.html#t01
(the text version is copied at the bottom.)
Coralie
> On 15 Sep 2020, at 17:56 , Léonie Watson <lwatson@tetralogical.com> wrote:
>
> Everyone,
>
> On today's call it was agreed that we would share Kim's video with the AC and let them know that we plan to [recommend to the W3C Director to] postpone publishing the proposed statement.
>
> Coralie, is it possible to host the video (plus captioned version) in W3C space before we share it?
>
> Thanks
> Léonie.
>
> --
> Director @TetraLogical
> https://tetralogical.com
Text version of the minutes:
----------------------------
IDCG Meeting
15 September 2020
[2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Sep/0021.html
[3] https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-irc
Attendees
Present
Annette_Greiner, Barb_Hochgesang, Coralie_Mercier,
Dan_Appelquist, Jeff_Jaffe, Judy_Brewer, Kim_Crayton,
Léonie_Watson, Marisa_DeMeglio, Ralph_Swick,
Tess_O'connor, Tobie_Langel, Tzviya_Siegman, Wendy_Reid
Regrets
chaals
Chair
Léonie
Scribe
jeff
Contents
1. [4]Video
2. [5]Dialogue with Kim Crayton
Meeting minutes
<koalie> [6]Previous (2020-09-01)
[6] https://www.w3.org/2020/09/01-idcg-minutes.html
Video
Kim Crayton has generously reviewed the W3C BLM statement and
has provided feedback via video:
IFRAME:
[7]https://app.streamfizz.live/embed/ckf46za96uet80731fjmy9hyb
[7] https://app.streamfizz.live/embed/ckf46za96uet80731fjmy9hyb
Dialogue with Kim Crayton
Leonie: Background leading up to this meeting
… this meeting is to figure out next steps
… Kim, can you summarize your feedback?
Dan: I watched Kim's video
… urge everyone else to listen and be receptive
Kim_Crayton: Tobie reached out 2 weeks ago
… feedback on BLM statement
… I offered to do that pro bono due to W3C's global influence
… introduces me to new spaces
… I was surprised that this homogeneous group would reach out
… my style may not comfort you
… the statement on its surface was not bad
… but it was not a BLM statement
… so the title did not fit
… not surprising, no black lives in this group
… white people need to stop speaking for black lives
… I was frustrated by your process
… context is loss in your email chain
… how do you get anything done?
… is that the best you can do?
… pretty crappy
… I told Tobie I need to talk to you
<koalie> [Tess arrives]
Kim_Crayton: I decided on video so nothing lost in translation
… To say "we support people" it's not bad
… if it is supporting a specific group, it is harmful to bring
other things into that statement
… BLM + blah blah blah is crap
… Also, anti-blackness is global
… not just US
… even where there are no black people
… anti-blackness is everywhere
… that's why the movement went global in the middle of a
pandemic
… tech is not neutral
… intention without strategy is chaos
… that is where this statement is leading
… I commend you for stopping
… lack of inclusion is a risk
… crisis management issue
… most companies have nothing in place
… engaging in safe ways is a crisis management issue
… white folks feeling a portion of what it is like
… this is white supremacy eating on its host
… you might have cared; but not enough
… the fact that you are late doesn't matter
… you are engaging becauses it causes harm to you
… you don't like how you feel
… only seeing white faces - that's a problem
… The violence statement was a red light
… people said we need to stop
… BLM, but with conditions?
… promotes a racist trope
… you should be thankful that black people have not rioted and
taken over your cities
… Blacks were not considered people
… the fact that we don't run down white folks says something
about our humanity
Leonie: Comments? Questions?
Barbara: I live in Portland
… totally relate
… a very white city struggling to move forward
… I am more action oriented
… if you were us - what are the 2, 3 things you recommend to
move forward
Kim: Portland is a great example of what is problematic
… they do all of this stuff
… but they are very racist
… and have not owned up
… white folks think they are helping and are doing harm
… I'm not fixing this for free
… you need to decide if you want a solidarity statement or a
BLM statement
… you don't need me for the former
… just remove the BLM title
… if you want a BLM statement
… (and thereby create a template for others)
… and dealing with the issues in tech more generally
… then I can help
Judy: I'm on W3C staff
… I would support paying a consultant
… some working on statements, some working on actions
… W3C is a key influence point in the tech field
… if W3C can develop some actions to improve
… and help others to do the same
… it would be a tiny piece in the right direction
… some members have an interest in W3C helping with that
process
… pull together resources and actions
… you said you don't want to provide free advice
… so I don't know what else to say.
Kim: I saw your strategies in the letter
… they don't apply depending on your path
… it is moot since it is not a BLM statements
… as a consultant I can both draft a statement and build a
playbook
… white folks should not do this by themselves,
… but I need them involved as a white shield
… without interpretation and change of nuance
… life is full of gray
… playbook needs to be iterative
Tzviya: Thanks Kim for the video, etc.
… assuming we have a BLM statement - can you point us to some
companies who have done this well?
Kim: A billionaire reached out to me
… he was going to give the money away
… <provides the name> (not scribed since it is personal)
… wanted to give money to black businesses
… anti-racist education tech foundation
… told him that this does not exist
… I've gotten so many calls
… this is new
… this doesn't exist
… think of yourselves as pioneers
… we get to counter the narratives of companies who are
lobbying
… will result in equity
… people are thinking about it; but noone is doing it
… let's get ahead of the harm
… provide alternatives
Wendy: Your feedback was amazing
… I had written the first draft of the statment
… I'm Canadian
… that's part of why I included indigeneous
… fused with BLM in Canada
Kim: Indeed, some are trying to annihilate indigeneous people
Wendy: I don't want to forget that group
… as a group we need to discuss direction
… so BLM v all lives matter - this is screwed up
Kim: Consider this a free coaching session
… You made a binary statement
… We all have a unique experiences
… even indigeneous cultures have anti-blackness
… all sorts of folks pass as white: indigeneous, Jewish
… that's the binary thinking that white folks have
… you can have multiple statements. But they need to be
separate
… that is why I told Judy that this is not about people with
disabilities
… you need to think in grays
Leonie: We extended our statement because this is not always
binary
… people of color with disabilities; LGBTQ
… how do we handle that
Kim: Here you intended a BLM statement
… so you dilute that by bringing in the other things
… white people have never been left out
… you must stop gatekeeping
Annette: Can we share the video with the AC
Kim: Please
… don't translate for me
Annette: In terms of a solidarity statement
… is that worse than no statement?
Kim: Not for me to decide
Annette: What would it be?
Kim: Worthless
Leonie: To whom?
Kim: Who would the statement benefit
Leonie: The intention is that it would be helpful for people
from marginalized communities
Kim: Intention without strategy is chaos
… how would the statement help?
… that's my view
Leonie: Well, Annette had asked about a solidarity statement
… off of that you said it would be worthless
… and I said why - it is not worthless to me as part of one
marginalized community
Kim: It is worthless for the long term
Kim: Does not help black lives
… everyone has a solidarity statement
… does nothing for me
… it is the status quo
… do you want to stick with that?
Leonie: We as a CG have some decisions to make
… we have clear advice from Kim
… publishing the statement in the current form does not support
BLM
… anyone think that is a mischaracterization?
Wendy: I agree we should not publish in the current state
… it was not my intention to cause more harm than good
… W3C can be a leader
… but we need help
… we also noted the lack of black people
… (and often the lack of women at W3C)
… I want us to be a leader
… but I want it to be the right way
… I want a BLM statement
… that requires changing the wording massively
<dka_> +1 to listening to Kim's feedback and to publishing a
proper BLM statement.
Wendy: doing it right is better even if later
Kim: Don't worry about the time
… we started this thing
… we stepped on the breaks because we did not want to cause
harm
… so we decided to create a strategy
Annette: We need to do more than reword it
… we need to rethink our strategy
… make W3C more black
Kim: Needs to be an international black lives matter statement
… says you are thoughtful
… recognize a global problem
Tzviya: We also discussed an equity review board
… early stages
… should we shift focus to recruiting more people
… shift our energies to actual actions
… sad that we are non-diverse
… big problem that this is a white group
Kim: I don't use terms like fair since that is decided by
people in power
… I don't talk about equality
… give two families $100 for groceries
… one with farms and quality food; a car; kids in day care and
they have choices
… the other lives in a food desert. Most go to convenience
store. They don't have a call.
… it is not equal
… need to supplement family that does not have a car.
… money for taxis, baby sitter
… so they have same quality of food
… equal ability to prepare the food
… if people don't understand from the perspective of lived
experiences?
… tech loves qualitative data
… quantitative data helps experience
Leonie: We all think the review board needs people of color
Kim: We recruit these people
<Ralph> [I heard qualitative vs quantitative the other way
'round]
Kim: but we fall flat on retention
<jeff> [Ralph, feel free to correct the record]
Kim: Looking at these white faces - you failed.
Leonie: In a community that is almost white, how do we make it
more welcoming
… we need to take responsibility
<Ralph> [others might wish to record how they heard those
remarks]
Leonie: that's what this community is doing.
<jeff> [You can provide a responsible opposing view]
Leonie: We have almost no people of color.
Kim: You don't know any black people?
Leonie: We do, but we don't want to impose on people's time
Kim: But you are willing to fix a problem that you don't
understand?
Tzviya: We don't want to tell black people what to do
… we don't select the people who join W3C
Kim: That this is moot.
… you don't have the power.
… I'm hearing excuses
… you have not taken ownership
… you have not created a space where black people would feel
safe
Annette: Here is how the AC works
… when an organization joins, they are the ones that nominate
an AC rep
Kim: So that needs to change
… where is the power?
… why do it here if you don't have the power.
… push it up to where the power is
Wendy: I'm not an AC rep
… we are a CG
… we have some status
… but we don't have the power
… the CEO is listening
… my company is global
… why can't they send a diverse set of representatives
… we should demand that our members send their best and most
diverse candidates
… I am giving an AC presentation
… I will ask them about that
… as a CG we should decide what we want to do
… the companies have diverse workforces
Kim: So Jeff is the CEO
… that is why I talk to leadership
… I have a finite bandwidth
… I don't like being translated
… people without power get burned out
… people in leadership need to advocate
… needs to come from the top
… communicated as an important initiative
… but I don't work with focus without power
… leadership needs to be at the table
Jeff: That's why I'm here
Judy: I wanted to give some examples
… with regard to inclusion of women
… over decades we kept hearing that W3C cannot do anything
about it
… must rely on AC
… we pushed back
… start talking about standards career path
… then our membership started sending more engineers
… then women said it was uncomfortable
… then made it more welcoming
… similar thing happened with disability
… good is some areas
… but it took many years to recruit, mentor, encourage, find
people with disabilities
… still working to be more welcoming
… we are in early stage for racial justice
Kim: In your efforts for women and disabilities
… you don't have black people
… still get left out
… women becomes white women
… LGBTQ becomes white LGBTQ
… disabilities become white disabilities
… I'm focused on the most vulnerable
Barbara: In my large company I see no effort
… I appreciate Judy's work
… but I've not seen it
… so is this a focus
… there seem to be no teeth or action
Kim: Without Jeff signing off I won't be doing it.
Leonie: I propose that we share the video feedback to the AC
… and recommend that we not publish the statement as is
… we will get back to them once we consider other steps
<dka_> +1
<tzviya> +1
<marisa> +1
<annette_g> +1
Leonie: since IDCG needs to rethink the plan
<hober> +1
<wendyreid> +1
<BarbH> +1
<jeff> +1 with coordination with W3M and the current WBS survey
<wendyreid> coralie: +1
several additional verbal: +1
… thanks Kim for all that you offered and shared
Kim: Thanks for having me
<BarbH> Great job. Learned a lot
Kim: you are bold to have invited me
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
[8]scribe.perl version 123 (Tue Sep 1 21:19:13 2020 UTC).
[8] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
--
Coralie Mercier - W3C Marketing & Communications - https://www.w3.org
mailto:coralie@w3.org +337 810 795 22 https://www.w3.org/People/Coralie/
Received on Tuesday, 15 September 2020 18:08:04 UTC