- From: Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
- Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 11:14:42 -0700
- To: public-idcg@w3.org
Is that public? If so, do we have Kim's permission? On 9/15/20 11:08 AM, Coralie Mercier wrote: > Hi Léonie, all, > > With clarification that the IDCG’s next step is to “recommend to the W3C Director” (to postpone publishing the statement), I have added the video to the online minutes of our dialogue: > > https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-minutes.html#t01 > > (the text version is copied at the bottom.) > > Coralie > >> On 15 Sep 2020, at 17:56 , Léonie Watson <lwatson@tetralogical.com> wrote: >> >> Everyone, >> >> On today's call it was agreed that we would share Kim's video with the AC and let them know that we plan to [recommend to the W3C Director to] postpone publishing the proposed statement. >> >> Coralie, is it possible to host the video (plus captioned version) in W3C space before we share it? >> >> Thanks >> Léonie. >> >> -- >> Director @TetraLogical >> https://tetralogical.com > Text version of the minutes: > ---------------------------- > > IDCG Meeting > 15 September 2020 > > [2]Agenda. [3]IRC log. > [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Sep/0021.html > [3] https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-irc > > Attendees > Present > Annette_Greiner, Barb_Hochgesang, Coralie_Mercier, > Dan_Appelquist, Jeff_Jaffe, Judy_Brewer, Kim_Crayton, > Léonie_Watson, Marisa_DeMeglio, Ralph_Swick, > Tess_O'connor, Tobie_Langel, Tzviya_Siegman, Wendy_Reid > Regrets > chaals > Chair > Léonie > Scribe > jeff > > Contents > 1. [4]Video > 2. [5]Dialogue with Kim Crayton > > Meeting minutes > > <koalie> [6]Previous (2020-09-01) > > [6] https://www.w3.org/2020/09/01-idcg-minutes.html > > Video > > Kim Crayton has generously reviewed the W3C BLM statement and > has provided feedback via video: > > IFRAME: > [7]https://app.streamfizz.live/embed/ckf46za96uet80731fjmy9hyb > > [7] https://app.streamfizz.live/embed/ckf46za96uet80731fjmy9hyb > > Dialogue with Kim Crayton > > Leonie: Background leading up to this meeting > … this meeting is to figure out next steps > … Kim, can you summarize your feedback? > > Dan: I watched Kim's video > … urge everyone else to listen and be receptive > > Kim_Crayton: Tobie reached out 2 weeks ago > … feedback on BLM statement > … I offered to do that pro bono due to W3C's global influence > … introduces me to new spaces > … I was surprised that this homogeneous group would reach out > … my style may not comfort you > … the statement on its surface was not bad > … but it was not a BLM statement > … so the title did not fit > … not surprising, no black lives in this group > … white people need to stop speaking for black lives > … I was frustrated by your process > … context is loss in your email chain > … how do you get anything done? > … is that the best you can do? > … pretty crappy > … I told Tobie I need to talk to you > > <koalie> [Tess arrives] > > Kim_Crayton: I decided on video so nothing lost in translation > … To say "we support people" it's not bad > … if it is supporting a specific group, it is harmful to bring > other things into that statement > … BLM + blah blah blah is crap > … Also, anti-blackness is global > … not just US > … even where there are no black people > … anti-blackness is everywhere > … that's why the movement went global in the middle of a > pandemic > … tech is not neutral > … intention without strategy is chaos > … that is where this statement is leading > … I commend you for stopping > … lack of inclusion is a risk > … crisis management issue > … most companies have nothing in place > … engaging in safe ways is a crisis management issue > … white folks feeling a portion of what it is like > … this is white supremacy eating on its host > … you might have cared; but not enough > … the fact that you are late doesn't matter > … you are engaging becauses it causes harm to you > … you don't like how you feel > … only seeing white faces - that's a problem > … The violence statement was a red light > … people said we need to stop > … BLM, but with conditions? > … promotes a racist trope > … you should be thankful that black people have not rioted and > taken over your cities > … Blacks were not considered people > … the fact that we don't run down white folks says something > about our humanity > > Leonie: Comments? Questions? > > Barbara: I live in Portland > … totally relate > … a very white city struggling to move forward > … I am more action oriented > … if you were us - what are the 2, 3 things you recommend to > move forward > > Kim: Portland is a great example of what is problematic > … they do all of this stuff > … but they are very racist > … and have not owned up > … white folks think they are helping and are doing harm > … I'm not fixing this for free > … you need to decide if you want a solidarity statement or a > BLM statement > … you don't need me for the former > … just remove the BLM title > … if you want a BLM statement > … (and thereby create a template for others) > … and dealing with the issues in tech more generally > … then I can help > > Judy: I'm on W3C staff > … I would support paying a consultant > … some working on statements, some working on actions > … W3C is a key influence point in the tech field > … if W3C can develop some actions to improve > … and help others to do the same > … it would be a tiny piece in the right direction > … some members have an interest in W3C helping with that > process > … pull together resources and actions > … you said you don't want to provide free advice > … so I don't know what else to say. > > Kim: I saw your strategies in the letter > … they don't apply depending on your path > … it is moot since it is not a BLM statements > … as a consultant I can both draft a statement and build a > playbook > … white folks should not do this by themselves, > … but I need them involved as a white shield > … without interpretation and change of nuance > … life is full of gray > … playbook needs to be iterative > > Tzviya: Thanks Kim for the video, etc. > … assuming we have a BLM statement - can you point us to some > companies who have done this well? > > Kim: A billionaire reached out to me > … he was going to give the money away > … <provides the name> (not scribed since it is personal) > … wanted to give money to black businesses > … anti-racist education tech foundation > … told him that this does not exist > … I've gotten so many calls > … this is new > … this doesn't exist > … think of yourselves as pioneers > … we get to counter the narratives of companies who are > lobbying > … will result in equity > … people are thinking about it; but noone is doing it > … let's get ahead of the harm > … provide alternatives > > Wendy: Your feedback was amazing > … I had written the first draft of the statment > … I'm Canadian > … that's part of why I included indigeneous > … fused with BLM in Canada > > Kim: Indeed, some are trying to annihilate indigeneous people > > Wendy: I don't want to forget that group > … as a group we need to discuss direction > … so BLM v all lives matter - this is screwed up > > Kim: Consider this a free coaching session > … You made a binary statement > … We all have a unique experiences > … even indigeneous cultures have anti-blackness > … all sorts of folks pass as white: indigeneous, Jewish > … that's the binary thinking that white folks have > … you can have multiple statements. But they need to be > separate > … that is why I told Judy that this is not about people with > disabilities > … you need to think in grays > > Leonie: We extended our statement because this is not always > binary > … people of color with disabilities; LGBTQ > … how do we handle that > > Kim: Here you intended a BLM statement > … so you dilute that by bringing in the other things > … white people have never been left out > … you must stop gatekeeping > > Annette: Can we share the video with the AC > > Kim: Please > … don't translate for me > > Annette: In terms of a solidarity statement > … is that worse than no statement? > > Kim: Not for me to decide > > Annette: What would it be? > > Kim: Worthless > > Leonie: To whom? > > Kim: Who would the statement benefit > > Leonie: The intention is that it would be helpful for people > from marginalized communities > > Kim: Intention without strategy is chaos > … how would the statement help? > … that's my view > > Leonie: Well, Annette had asked about a solidarity statement > … off of that you said it would be worthless > … and I said why - it is not worthless to me as part of one > marginalized community > > Kim: It is worthless for the long term > > Kim: Does not help black lives > … everyone has a solidarity statement > … does nothing for me > … it is the status quo > … do you want to stick with that? > > Leonie: We as a CG have some decisions to make > … we have clear advice from Kim > … publishing the statement in the current form does not support > BLM > … anyone think that is a mischaracterization? > > Wendy: I agree we should not publish in the current state > … it was not my intention to cause more harm than good > … W3C can be a leader > … but we need help > … we also noted the lack of black people > … (and often the lack of women at W3C) > … I want us to be a leader > … but I want it to be the right way > … I want a BLM statement > … that requires changing the wording massively > > <dka_> +1 to listening to Kim's feedback and to publishing a > proper BLM statement. > > Wendy: doing it right is better even if later > > Kim: Don't worry about the time > … we started this thing > … we stepped on the breaks because we did not want to cause > harm > … so we decided to create a strategy > > Annette: We need to do more than reword it > … we need to rethink our strategy > … make W3C more black > > Kim: Needs to be an international black lives matter statement > … says you are thoughtful > … recognize a global problem > > Tzviya: We also discussed an equity review board > … early stages > … should we shift focus to recruiting more people > … shift our energies to actual actions > … sad that we are non-diverse > … big problem that this is a white group > > Kim: I don't use terms like fair since that is decided by > people in power > … I don't talk about equality > … give two families $100 for groceries > … one with farms and quality food; a car; kids in day care and > they have choices > … the other lives in a food desert. Most go to convenience > store. They don't have a call. > … it is not equal > … need to supplement family that does not have a car. > … money for taxis, baby sitter > … so they have same quality of food > … equal ability to prepare the food > … if people don't understand from the perspective of lived > experiences? > … tech loves qualitative data > … quantitative data helps experience > > Leonie: We all think the review board needs people of color > > Kim: We recruit these people > > <Ralph> [I heard qualitative vs quantitative the other way > 'round] > > Kim: but we fall flat on retention > > <jeff> [Ralph, feel free to correct the record] > > Kim: Looking at these white faces - you failed. > > Leonie: In a community that is almost white, how do we make it > more welcoming > … we need to take responsibility > > <Ralph> [others might wish to record how they heard those > remarks] > > Leonie: that's what this community is doing. > > <jeff> [You can provide a responsible opposing view] > > Leonie: We have almost no people of color. > > Kim: You don't know any black people? > > Leonie: We do, but we don't want to impose on people's time > > Kim: But you are willing to fix a problem that you don't > understand? > > Tzviya: We don't want to tell black people what to do > … we don't select the people who join W3C > > Kim: That this is moot. > … you don't have the power. > … I'm hearing excuses > … you have not taken ownership > … you have not created a space where black people would feel > safe > > Annette: Here is how the AC works > … when an organization joins, they are the ones that nominate > an AC rep > > Kim: So that needs to change > … where is the power? > … why do it here if you don't have the power. > … push it up to where the power is > > Wendy: I'm not an AC rep > … we are a CG > … we have some status > … but we don't have the power > … the CEO is listening > … my company is global > … why can't they send a diverse set of representatives > … we should demand that our members send their best and most > diverse candidates > … I am giving an AC presentation > … I will ask them about that > … as a CG we should decide what we want to do > … the companies have diverse workforces > > Kim: So Jeff is the CEO > … that is why I talk to leadership > … I have a finite bandwidth > … I don't like being translated > … people without power get burned out > … people in leadership need to advocate > … needs to come from the top > … communicated as an important initiative > … but I don't work with focus without power > … leadership needs to be at the table > > Jeff: That's why I'm here > > Judy: I wanted to give some examples > … with regard to inclusion of women > … over decades we kept hearing that W3C cannot do anything > about it > … must rely on AC > … we pushed back > … start talking about standards career path > … then our membership started sending more engineers > … then women said it was uncomfortable > … then made it more welcoming > … similar thing happened with disability > … good is some areas > … but it took many years to recruit, mentor, encourage, find > people with disabilities > … still working to be more welcoming > … we are in early stage for racial justice > > Kim: In your efforts for women and disabilities > … you don't have black people > … still get left out > … women becomes white women > … LGBTQ becomes white LGBTQ > … disabilities become white disabilities > … I'm focused on the most vulnerable > > Barbara: In my large company I see no effort > … I appreciate Judy's work > … but I've not seen it > … so is this a focus > … there seem to be no teeth or action > > Kim: Without Jeff signing off I won't be doing it. > > Leonie: I propose that we share the video feedback to the AC > … and recommend that we not publish the statement as is > … we will get back to them once we consider other steps > > <dka_> +1 > > <tzviya> +1 > > <marisa> +1 > > <annette_g> +1 > > Leonie: since IDCG needs to rethink the plan > > <hober> +1 > > <wendyreid> +1 > > <BarbH> +1 > > <jeff> +1 with coordination with W3M and the current WBS survey > > <wendyreid> coralie: +1 > > several additional verbal: +1 > … thanks Kim for all that you offered and shared > > Kim: Thanks for having me > > <BarbH> Great job. Learned a lot > > Kim: you are bold to have invited me > > > Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by > [8]scribe.perl version 123 (Tue Sep 1 21:19:13 2020 UTC). > > [8] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html > > > -- > Coralie Mercier - W3C Marketing & Communications - https://www.w3.org > mailto:coralie@w3.org +337 810 795 22 https://www.w3.org/People/Coralie/ > > > > > > > -- Annette Greiner (she) NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
Received on Tuesday, 15 September 2020 18:15:00 UTC