Re: + minutes of 2020-09-15 meeting - Re: Sharing the BLM statement feedback with the AC

Thank you for the minutes. I had thought this was on Thursday. I am very
sorry I missed it.

Great conversation, and I 100% agree with Kim's comments. If you don't put
money where your mouth is, and pay someone and put them in a position of
power to act and you protect them, you may as well do nothing. (What I have
learned after 80 hours of my own research on the topic.)

If you decide to move forward, I would like to participate 100%.
Regardless, I continue with my own research/plan for the CCG CG.

Cheers,

-Heather

On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 11:08 AM Coralie Mercier <coralie@w3.org> wrote:

> Hi Léonie, all,
>
> With clarification that the IDCG’s next step is to “recommend to the W3C
> Director” (to postpone publishing the statement), I have added the video to
> the online minutes of our dialogue:
>
>   https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-minutes.html#t01
>
> (the text version is copied at the bottom.)
>
> Coralie
>
> > On 15 Sep 2020, at 17:56 , Léonie Watson <lwatson@tetralogical.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Everyone,
> >
> > On today's call it was agreed that we would share Kim's video with the
> AC and let them know that we plan to [recommend to the W3C Director to]
> postpone publishing the proposed statement.
> >
> > Coralie, is it possible to host the video (plus captioned version) in
> W3C space before we share it?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Léonie.
> >
> > --
> > Director @TetraLogical
> > https://tetralogical.com
>
> Text version of the minutes:
> ----------------------------
>
>                               IDCG Meeting
>                            15 September 2020
>
>    [2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
>       [2]
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Sep/0021.html
>       [3] https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-irc
>
> Attendees
>    Present
>           Annette_Greiner, Barb_Hochgesang, Coralie_Mercier,
>           Dan_Appelquist, Jeff_Jaffe, Judy_Brewer, Kim_Crayton,
>           Léonie_Watson, Marisa_DeMeglio, Ralph_Swick,
>           Tess_O'connor, Tobie_Langel, Tzviya_Siegman, Wendy_Reid
>    Regrets
>           chaals
>    Chair
>           Léonie
>    Scribe
>           jeff
>
> Contents
>     1. [4]Video
>     2. [5]Dialogue with Kim Crayton
>
> Meeting minutes
>
>    <koalie> [6]Previous (2020-09-01)
>
>       [6] https://www.w3.org/2020/09/01-idcg-minutes.html
>
>   Video
>
>    Kim Crayton has generously reviewed the W3C BLM statement and
>    has provided feedback via video:
>
>    IFRAME:
>    [7]https://app.streamfizz.live/embed/ckf46za96uet80731fjmy9hyb
>
>       [7] https://app.streamfizz.live/embed/ckf46za96uet80731fjmy9hyb
>
>   Dialogue with Kim Crayton
>
>    Leonie: Background leading up to this meeting
>    … this meeting is to figure out next steps
>    … Kim, can you summarize your feedback?
>
>    Dan: I watched Kim's video
>    … urge everyone else to listen and be receptive
>
>    Kim_Crayton: Tobie reached out 2 weeks ago
>    … feedback on BLM statement
>    … I offered to do that pro bono due to W3C's global influence
>    … introduces me to new spaces
>    … I was surprised that this homogeneous group would reach out
>    … my style may not comfort you
>    … the statement on its surface was not bad
>    … but it was not a BLM statement
>    … so the title did not fit
>    … not surprising, no black lives in this group
>    … white people need to stop speaking for black lives
>    … I was frustrated by your process
>    … context is loss in your email chain
>    … how do you get anything done?
>    … is that the best you can do?
>    … pretty crappy
>    … I told Tobie I need to talk to you
>
>    <koalie> [Tess arrives]
>
>    Kim_Crayton: I decided on video so nothing lost in translation
>    … To say "we support people" it's not bad
>    … if it is supporting a specific group, it is harmful to bring
>    other things into that statement
>    … BLM + blah blah blah is crap
>    … Also, anti-blackness is global
>    … not just US
>    … even where there are no black people
>    … anti-blackness is everywhere
>    … that's why the movement went global in the middle of a
>    pandemic
>    … tech is not neutral
>    … intention without strategy is chaos
>    … that is where this statement is leading
>    … I commend you for stopping
>    … lack of inclusion is a risk
>    … crisis management issue
>    … most companies have nothing in place
>    … engaging in safe ways is a crisis management issue
>    … white folks feeling a portion of what it is like
>    … this is white supremacy eating on its host
>    … you might have cared; but not enough
>    … the fact that you are late doesn't matter
>    … you are engaging becauses it causes harm to you
>    … you don't like how you feel
>    … only seeing white faces - that's a problem
>    … The violence statement was a red light
>    … people said we need to stop
>    … BLM, but with conditions?
>    … promotes a racist trope
>    … you should be thankful that black people have not rioted and
>    taken over your cities
>    … Blacks were not considered people
>    … the fact that we don't run down white folks says something
>    about our humanity
>
>    Leonie: Comments? Questions?
>
>    Barbara: I live in Portland
>    … totally relate
>    … a very white city struggling to move forward
>    … I am more action oriented
>    … if you were us - what are the 2, 3 things you recommend to
>    move forward
>
>    Kim: Portland is a great example of what is problematic
>    … they do all of this stuff
>    … but they are very racist
>    … and have not owned up
>    … white folks think they are helping and are doing harm
>    … I'm not fixing this for free
>    … you need to decide if you want a solidarity statement or a
>    BLM statement
>    … you don't need me for the former
>    … just remove the BLM title
>    … if you want a BLM statement
>    … (and thereby create a template for others)
>    … and dealing with the issues in tech more generally
>    … then I can help
>
>    Judy: I'm on W3C staff
>    … I would support paying a consultant
>    … some working on statements, some working on actions
>    … W3C is a key influence point in the tech field
>    … if W3C can develop some actions to improve
>    … and help others to do the same
>    … it would be a tiny piece in the right direction
>    … some members have an interest in W3C helping with that
>    process
>    … pull together resources and actions
>    … you said you don't want to provide free advice
>    … so I don't know what else to say.
>
>    Kim: I saw your strategies in the letter
>    … they don't apply depending on your path
>    … it is moot since it is not a BLM statements
>    … as a consultant I can both draft a statement and build a
>    playbook
>    … white folks should not do this by themselves,
>    … but I need them involved as a white shield
>    … without interpretation and change of nuance
>    … life is full of gray
>    … playbook needs to be iterative
>
>    Tzviya: Thanks Kim for the video, etc.
>    … assuming we have a BLM statement - can you point us to some
>    companies who have done this well?
>
>    Kim: A billionaire reached out to me
>    … he was going to give the money away
>    … <provides the name> (not scribed since it is personal)
>    … wanted to give money to black businesses
>    … anti-racist education tech foundation
>    … told him that this does not exist
>    … I've gotten so many calls
>    … this is new
>    … this doesn't exist
>    … think of yourselves as pioneers
>    … we get to counter the narratives of companies who are
>    lobbying
>    … will result in equity
>    … people are thinking about it; but noone is doing it
>    … let's get ahead of the harm
>    … provide alternatives
>
>    Wendy: Your feedback was amazing
>    … I had written the first draft of the statment
>    … I'm Canadian
>    … that's part of why I included indigeneous
>    … fused with BLM in Canada
>
>    Kim: Indeed, some are trying to annihilate indigeneous people
>
>    Wendy: I don't want to forget that group
>    … as a group we need to discuss direction
>    … so BLM v all lives matter - this is screwed up
>
>    Kim: Consider this a free coaching session
>    … You made a binary statement
>    … We all have a unique experiences
>    … even indigeneous cultures have anti-blackness
>    … all sorts of folks pass as white: indigeneous, Jewish
>    … that's the binary thinking that white folks have
>    … you can have multiple statements. But they need to be
>    separate
>    … that is why I told Judy that this is not about people with
>    disabilities
>    … you need to think in grays
>
>    Leonie: We extended our statement because this is not always
>    binary
>    … people of color with disabilities; LGBTQ
>    … how do we handle that
>
>    Kim: Here you intended a BLM statement
>    … so you dilute that by bringing in the other things
>    … white people have never been left out
>    … you must stop gatekeeping
>
>    Annette: Can we share the video with the AC
>
>    Kim: Please
>    … don't translate for me
>
>    Annette: In terms of a solidarity statement
>    … is that worse than no statement?
>
>    Kim: Not for me to decide
>
>    Annette: What would it be?
>
>    Kim: Worthless
>
>    Leonie: To whom?
>
>    Kim: Who would the statement benefit
>
>    Leonie: The intention is that it would be helpful for people
>    from marginalized communities
>
>    Kim: Intention without strategy is chaos
>    … how would the statement help?
>    … that's my view
>
>    Leonie: Well, Annette had asked about a solidarity statement
>    … off of that you said it would be worthless
>    … and I said why - it is not worthless to me as part of one
>    marginalized community
>
>    Kim: It is worthless for the long term
>
>    Kim: Does not help black lives
>    … everyone has a solidarity statement
>    … does nothing for me
>    … it is the status quo
>    … do you want to stick with that?
>
>    Leonie: We as a CG have some decisions to make
>    … we have clear advice from Kim
>    … publishing the statement in the current form does not support
>    BLM
>    … anyone think that is a mischaracterization?
>
>    Wendy: I agree we should not publish in the current state
>    … it was not my intention to cause more harm than good
>    … W3C can be a leader
>    … but we need help
>    … we also noted the lack of black people
>    … (and often the lack of women at W3C)
>    … I want us to be a leader
>    … but I want it to be the right way
>    … I want a BLM statement
>    … that requires changing the wording massively
>
>    <dka_> +1 to listening to Kim's feedback and to publishing a
>    proper BLM statement.
>
>    Wendy: doing it right is better even if later
>
>    Kim: Don't worry about the time
>    … we started this thing
>    … we stepped on the breaks because we did not want to cause
>    harm
>    … so we decided to create a strategy
>
>    Annette: We need to do more than reword it
>    … we need to rethink our strategy
>    … make W3C more black
>
>    Kim: Needs to be an international black lives matter statement
>    … says you are thoughtful
>    … recognize a global problem
>
>    Tzviya: We also discussed an equity review board
>    … early stages
>    … should we shift focus to recruiting more people
>    … shift our energies to actual actions
>    … sad that we are non-diverse
>    … big problem that this is a white group
>
>    Kim: I don't use terms like fair since that is decided by
>    people in power
>    … I don't talk about equality
>    … give two families $100 for groceries
>    … one with farms and quality food; a car; kids in day care and
>    they have choices
>    … the other lives in a food desert. Most go to convenience
>    store. They don't have a call.
>    … it is not equal
>    … need to supplement family that does not have a car.
>    … money for taxis, baby sitter
>    … so they have same quality of food
>    … equal ability to prepare the food
>    … if people don't understand from the perspective of lived
>    experiences?
>    … tech loves qualitative data
>    … quantitative data helps experience
>
>    Leonie: We all think the review board needs people of color
>
>    Kim: We recruit these people
>
>    <Ralph> [I heard qualitative vs quantitative the other way
>    'round]
>
>    Kim: but we fall flat on retention
>
>    <jeff> [Ralph, feel free to correct the record]
>
>    Kim: Looking at these white faces - you failed.
>
>    Leonie: In a community that is almost white, how do we make it
>    more welcoming
>    … we need to take responsibility
>
>    <Ralph> [others might wish to record how they heard those
>    remarks]
>
>    Leonie: that's what this community is doing.
>
>    <jeff> [You can provide a responsible opposing view]
>
>    Leonie: We have almost no people of color.
>
>    Kim: You don't know any black people?
>
>    Leonie: We do, but we don't want to impose on people's time
>
>    Kim: But you are willing to fix a problem that you don't
>    understand?
>
>    Tzviya: We don't want to tell black people what to do
>    … we don't select the people who join W3C
>
>    Kim: That this is moot.
>    … you don't have the power.
>    … I'm hearing excuses
>    … you have not taken ownership
>    … you have not created a space where black people would feel
>    safe
>
>    Annette: Here is how the AC works
>    … when an organization joins, they are the ones that nominate
>    an AC rep
>
>    Kim: So that needs to change
>    … where is the power?
>    … why do it here if you don't have the power.
>    … push it up to where the power is
>
>    Wendy: I'm not an AC rep
>    … we are a CG
>    … we have some status
>    … but we don't have the power
>    … the CEO is listening
>    … my company is global
>    … why can't they send a diverse set of representatives
>    … we should demand that our members send their best and most
>    diverse candidates
>    … I am giving an AC presentation
>    … I will ask them about that
>    … as a CG we should decide what we want to do
>    … the companies have diverse workforces
>
>    Kim: So Jeff is the CEO
>    … that is why I talk to leadership
>    … I have a finite bandwidth
>    … I don't like being translated
>    … people without power get burned out
>    … people in leadership need to advocate
>    … needs to come from the top
>    … communicated as an important initiative
>    … but I don't work with focus without power
>    … leadership needs to be at the table
>
>    Jeff: That's why I'm here
>
>    Judy: I wanted to give some examples
>    … with regard to inclusion of women
>    … over decades we kept hearing that W3C cannot do anything
>    about it
>    … must rely on AC
>    … we pushed back
>    … start talking about standards career path
>    … then our membership started sending more engineers
>    … then women said it was uncomfortable
>    … then made it more welcoming
>    … similar thing happened with disability
>    … good is some areas
>    … but it took many years to recruit, mentor, encourage, find
>    people with disabilities
>    … still working to be more welcoming
>    … we are in early stage for racial justice
>
>    Kim: In your efforts for women and disabilities
>    … you don't have black people
>    … still get left out
>    … women becomes white women
>    … LGBTQ becomes white LGBTQ
>    … disabilities become white disabilities
>    … I'm focused on the most vulnerable
>
>    Barbara: In my large company I see no effort
>    … I appreciate Judy's work
>    … but I've not seen it
>    … so is this a focus
>    … there seem to be no teeth or action
>
>    Kim: Without Jeff signing off I won't be doing it.
>
>    Leonie: I propose that we share the video feedback to the AC
>    … and recommend that we not publish the statement as is
>    … we will get back to them once we consider other steps
>
>    <dka_> +1
>
>    <tzviya> +1
>
>    <marisa> +1
>
>    <annette_g> +1
>
>    Leonie: since IDCG needs to rethink the plan
>
>    <hober> +1
>
>    <wendyreid> +1
>
>    <BarbH> +1
>
>    <jeff> +1 with coordination with W3M and the current WBS survey
>
>    <wendyreid> coralie: +1
>
>    several additional verbal: +1
>    … thanks Kim for all that you offered and shared
>
>    Kim: Thanks for having me
>
>    <BarbH> Great job. Learned a lot
>
>    Kim: you are bold to have invited me
>
>
>     Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
>     [8]scribe.perl version 123 (Tue Sep 1 21:19:13 2020 UTC).
>
>       [8] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
>
>
> --
> Coralie Mercier  -  W3C Marketing & Communications -  https://www.w3.org
> mailto:coralie@w3.org +337 810 795 22 https://www.w3.org/People/Coralie/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Heather Vescent <http://www.heathervescent.com/>
Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C
<https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/>
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