[minutes] 2020-11-17 - Re: IDCG meeting agenda

Hi all,

The minutes of today’s meeting are available:

(Text snapshot at the bottom)


> On 16 Nov 2020, at 09:31 , Léonie Watson <lwatson@tetralogical.com> wrote:
> Everyone,
> Day: Tuesday 17 November
> Time: 2PM UTC.
> Duration: 55 minutes.
> Meeting information (Zoom, IRC etc.):
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/internal-idcg/2020Aug/0009.html
> We will use IRC for taking meeting minutes and Zoom "raise hand" to manage the queue.
> Agenda:
> 1. Personal pronouns in W3C profiles
> It has been suggested that the option to add your personal pronouns to your W3C profile would be a positive change. Ralph and Wendy have asked IDCG for comment on the following points and questions:
> * To support individuality, the personal pronouns field will be user editable (not a choice from a predetermined set of options).
> * To encourage people to provide their personal pronouns, the personal pronouns section will always be displayed on a person's profile, even when no pronouns have been indicated.
> * Are there known best practices that could be used to check what is entered into the personal pronouns field to avoid the content intentionally or unintentionally causing offence?
> 2. Next steps with the BLM statement
> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/34
> The little discussion this question provoked seems to suggest we should focus our efforts on practical activities rather than reworking the BLM statement.
> The aim of this agenda item is for the IDCG to decide what it wants to focus on, so we can make progress with whatever it may be.
> 3. Actions
> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/
> Updates and progress on any open actions.
> Léonie.
> -- 
> Director @TetraLogical
> https://tetralogical.com

Text snapshot:
                        IDCG meeting 17 November
                           17 November 2020

   [2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
      [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Nov/0010.html
      [3] https://www.w3.org/2020/11/17-idcg-irc

          Charles Nevile (chaals), Coralie Mercier (koalie), Jeff
          Jaffe, Judy Brewer, Amy Guy (rhiaro), Léonie Watson
          (tink), Tzviya Siegman, Wendy Reid
          Annette_Greiner, Marisa_DeMeglio, Tobie_Langel,
          koalie, rhiaro

    1. [4]Pronouns in w3c bio
    2. [5]What we think should happen with the BLM statement
    3. [6]Change of Chairs for this group
    4. [7]Update on action items

Meeting minutes

   <koalie> [8]Previous: 2020-10-13 join meeting of IDCG and PWECG
   as part of TPAC 2020

      [8] https://www.w3.org/2020/10/13-idcg-minutes.html

   <koalie> [9]Previous IDCG meeting (2020-10-06)

      [9] https://www.w3.org/2020/10/06-idcg-minutes.html

  Pronouns in w3c bio

   tink: It has been requested by ralph and wendy that people have
   the ability to put pronouns in w3c bio, we've been asked to
   share our thoughts
   … First question is is this a good idea? should w3c do this?
   … second one is the thinking is whether someone completes this
   section or not, that section will still be visible, the idea
   being it will hopefully encourage more people to add that
   … last question is are we aware of any guidelines we can use to
   make sure whatever gets entered into those fields, are there
   best practices to check that what goes into those fields
   doesn't send out the wrong message
   … any thoughts on if this should happen?

   <koalie> [Judy arrives]

   tink: I think this would be a good addition

   tzviya: I think i'ts a good idea also, as long as it's clear
   it's not required

   Amy_Guy: +1
   … and I agree it shouldn't be mandatory

   <koalie> [chaals arrives]

   tink: brings us back to the second part - shoud it be available
   if someone chooses not to fill it in

   Amy: My instinct is: it shouldn't
   … there are cases people might not be willing to share their
   pronouns widely
   … if the field is not there at all, it may make some people
   more comfortable

   tink: any other thoughts?

   <tzviya> +1 to rhiaro

   tink: the next part is should the field, if it exists, be user

   <chaals> [IMHO absolutely should be user-editable]

   <koalie> +1

   tink: there is no widely available pronoun set

   <tzviya> +1

   koalie: yes, it should be user editable so we don't create
   discomfort by missing people

   tink: i agree, this is a personal choice

   Amy: in the [10]http://pronoun.is/all-pronouns site, there's a
   starting point of a list

     [10] http://pronoun.is/all-pronouns

   tink: good resource
   … Ralph and Wendy asked for those
   … do we know of any other resources?
   … hearing none, this gives ralph and wendy a sense of where
   those of us on the call today are on this subject

   koalie: yes I think that's helpful

  What we think should happen with the BLM statement

   <koalie> [11]thread in public-idcg: Next steps with the BLM

     [11] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Nov/thread.html#msg10

   tink: Recap - we worked on a statement, it was sent to the AC
   who consented for it to be published, but as the AC were
   reviewing it we also asked an external specialist, Kim Crayton,
   to review, who came back with very useful feedback
   … brought it home to us ethat the statement as it stood did not
   perhaps do everything we hoped it would or send the messaged we
   hoped for
   … this CG recommended that the statement wasnot published on
   behalf of w3c
   … we now find ourselves at the point where we need to decide
   what to focus on next

   jeff: a technicality - I don't think the AC approved the
   … it went to review, there was one formal objection, the
   director was in the process of processing that objection
   … the director might have overruled it, but while he was
   considering the issue we got the recommendation from Kim
   Crayton and pulled the statement back

   tink: I had forgotten the objection.. it was a stressful time

   <koalie> [Wendy Reid arrives]

   tink: The situation we find ourselves in at the moment (there
   is a github issue) - the option as I think of them are that we
   could edit the statement based on Kim's feedback
   … could go back ot the AC to look at it again
   … one of the risks if we do that is that we as a group do not
   have any representation from any person of colour, for whom
   that statement is supposed to be support of
   … that's a risk Kim pointed out
   … it would be wrong of us to create a statement in support of a
   community of people that has no representation in this group
   … An alternative we could decide is reediting is not where we
   want to focus our energies, and we could move forward with our
   todo list actions
   … and send our support out to the web community by doing, and
   talking about what we've been doing
   … there may be other possibilities

   judy: I would favour our working on actions and trying to
   become a more welcoming community group
   … so we can be more welcoming in those in our own community who
   haven't yet joined this, and also reaching out to others
   outside the w3c space
   … I'm starting to work with a consultant for some of the areas
   of work that are looking at intersection of race and
   disability. Early stages, but every area of w3c work could
   benefit from some of that
   … one of the things I hope we hang onto if we do focus more on
   actions would be the themes from the message cos I think that
   those will continue to be useful
   … as areas of subgoals, learning, messaging, outreach, creating
   welcoming environment, supporting participants, ...
   … we also need to work on regaining our momentum as a CG
   … that may include some focus on logistics
   … getting really clear announcements of meetings and agendas,
   getting stuff queued up to talk about
   … that's my hope, and happy to help as much as I can
   … I don't know if there's discussion about the timing, but it
   conflicts with an obligation I have

   <jeff> +1 to Judy

   tzviya: focussing on action items is important, but one of the
   things we talked about when were writing the statement is that
   one way of attracting people of colour to the community is to
   have a statement
   … the earlier version of the statement was pretty robust, there
   was a lot of editing
   … something i've noticed in looking at statements from people
   like the group p5 (who did great breakouts at tpac)

   <tzviya> [12]https://p5js.org/community/

     [12] https://p5js.org/community/

   tzviya: it's not necessarily an overt statement, but if you
   take a look at their community page, there's not a particular
   BLM statement, but in their page about themselves there's this
   list of stuff that they support and one of the things they
   mention is BLM
   … I wonder if there's something we can do, maybe coming from
   w3c's page in general, talking about values that w3c support
   … just making sure to be more inclusive in people of colour and
   these topics in general
   … making sure in mentioning other values when we're talking
   about supporting organisations and social good and all of that
   … as well as accessibility and privacy, but also BLM and
   particularly mentioning a phrase like BLM

   wendyreid: I agree with everything tzviya just said, also like
   the p5js community statement
   … in lieu of our .. I want us to publish a statement of some
   kind because as tzviya said we need to more obviously signal to
   the community that this is something we are concerned about
   … we do want to be a more inclusive space, we want to welcome
   people from all backgrounds
   … but I also think we need to do some action
   … the statement maybe should be more inline with what p5 has
   … not just a one time blog post, something on the website, part
   of our comms and messaging, saying this is who we are now
   … and not going to accept anything less than this
   … I think that that might make a bigger statement
   … we should probably get consultants from people like Kim and
   members in the community
   … but we have to make it clear to members of our community that
   this is something we are concerned about
   … there's nothing we can point to when people ask where w3c
   stands on social equity or something like that

   <tzviya> I was also really impressed with Kay Martinez

     [13] https://www.mghihp.edu/departments/justice-equity-diversity-and-inclusion

   tink: you think it would be okay to make the statement part of
   the w3c messaging itself rather than a one of blog post?

   wendyreid: yes

   chaals: a couple of thoughts... I agree with judy and wendy and
   … what we do is pretty important
   … by and large i would like to focus on that if we're going to
   make a statement i'm not sure what the best way to do it is
   … I personally tend to favour fairly short statements
   … the reason is because .. I favour the idea that we make short
   statements, because we should be focussing on our actions and
   backing them up
   … yes we would like to be a much more welcoming organisation,
   is important, the fact that this is a middle class white
   anglosphere gropu suggests we would like that but we're doing a
   really bad job of it
   … and we desperately want help doing that better. probably
   worth saying that

   tink: do you mean a short statement in line with what tzviya
   and wendy were talking about, or a separate blog post?

   chaals: maybe as short as "black lives matter" on the top of
   the website
   … there is a question of how you get.. are we taking on a
   position that w3c members agree with or that they disagree with
   and if we are the director should be consciously saying I'm
   going to make this statement and if you don't like it leave

   <rhiaro> +1 if you don't like it leave :)

   jeff: I strongly agree with judy and chaals, emphasis on our
   … also agree with tzviya and wendy's point of view that what we
   say is important
   … I have a slight preference for the actions (speak louder than
   … but both important
   … we are long overdue for the values conversation
   … it's happening in a number of places, at the AB to some
   … and as part of the legal entity discussions and how we want
   to position the organisation for the future
   … all of these are important directions
   … there's a big question about venue
   … I did want to express two cautions
   … which go above and beyond what has been said

   <chaals> [Note that I am the person least likely to support the
   director makes a statement and says 'if you don't like it,
   leave". But it might be the reasonable thing to do…]

   jeff: the first is that we have to come to ground is whether we
   want to make a BLM statement at all
   … when I was hearing tzviya talking about statements and p5 and
   so forth, I recall that one of Ki'ms critiques of our statement
   is that she characterised as it wasn't the black lives matter
   statement, it was an all lives matter statement
   … we want to uplevel this to what are our values in general -
   if that becomes are focus we are also saying we are not going
   to have a BLM focus
   … I don't see any way of avoiding Kim's critique
   … it's suddenly about all of the values
   … she wanted something focussed exclusively on Black lives
   … we have to be conscious of that
   … Also think our biggest problem as a CG is getting the
   membership involved
   … any statement we make even if it's approved by the membership
   if there's no buyin and no passion and no action underneath it
   has the other thing that Kim critiqued
   … what's going to be happening as a result?
   … we have to find a way to get the AC actively involved
   … if we had 5% of the AC, 20 AC members invovled with us, that
   would be a huge victory
   … at the moment we're not a critical mass in our group

   tink: as I understood it, Kim's feedback about not making the
   BLM statement into an All Lives Matter statement was said
   within the context of us publishing a statement about BLM
   … tzviya was talking about a more general message about other
   things we support
   … I don't think Kim was saing we shouldn't support a more
   general statement
   … but if we were to make a BLM statement we should focus in on
   the one thing

   tzviya: I was saying we should include something specific in a
   general statement of values
   … I think Kim's concern was that our previous statement said
   "Black lives matter, but.."

   tink: we should ask for input and feedback from Kim and others
   on how it might be perceived

   jeff: I think I was misunderstood
   … I agree Leonie that Kim would not object to our having a
   general values statement which talked about our general values
   and mentioned BLM as one of the things
   … But she just wouldn't characterise that as a BLM statement
   … my point was not to say we shouldn't have a general values
   statement - we should - but pointing out that it wouldn't
   qualify to be a BLM statement according to Kim's criteria
   … if we put our energy into the general values statement,
   that's fine, but means we are taking off our immediate agenda
   our BLM statement

   judy: my comment was about logistics and rebuilding momentum, i
   think that's well within our reach
   … multiple people wanted to attend but the time change made it
   … What Jeff is focussing on is an important differentiation

   wendyreid: Kim is not hear to speak for herself
   … I'm really uncomfortable with people saying what Kim would
   say about what we're doing
   … What tzviya and I are talking about is adding something to
   the w3c website that is inline with our mission statement
   … there has been confusion in the past about the w3c mission

   <koalie> [14]W3C website: W3C Mission

     [14] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/mission

   wendyreid: this is a chance to reclarify it and reflect the
   modern values of w3c today
   … this i think is very different from a BLM statement

   <koalie> in particular: [15]https://www.w3.org/Consortium/

     [15] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/mission#principles

   wendyreid: the statemetn we were originally discussing was
   essentially going to be a one time blogpost/tweet that might
   invoke discussion or news coverage
   … but it still would have been a one time thing, announcement
   … we would reinforce it with actions, we still want to do that
   … but one thing I took away from what Kim told us is that if
   we're doing the statemetn we have to be as impactful and short
   and to the point as possible
   … we were driven into this awkward what-about-this kind of
   … if we are to make a statement on top of what we do to change
   the mission statement or something like that, we should still
   be as short and to the point as possible
   … internally we need to make these changes and perform these
   actions, and perform these actions before we make any sort of
   … and we need help
   … whether from the AC, and also consultancy
   … there are many inclusion and diversity consultants out there
   … we need professional help and buyin
   … we're going in a slightly different direction, but we need to
   define that

   <tzviya> +1 wendyreid

   tink: I apologies if I spoke on behalf of other people
   … I'd like to finish off by doing a strawpoll on some simple
   questions so people who are not in the meeting can get a sense
   of how those of us who are here are thinking

   PROPOSAL: we edit the blm statement in response to Kim's

   <tzviya> -1

   <tink> 0

   <chaals> 0

   <rhiaro> 0

   <wendyreid> 0

   <jeff> Judy:0

   <koalie> 0

   <tink> +1

   PROPOSAL: we explore the idea of messaging along the lines of

   <wendyreid> +1

   <koalie> 0

   <tzviya> +1


   <koalie> Judy: 0

   PROPOSAL: we focus energies on actions that we have

   <tink> +1

   <wendyreid> +1

   <chaals> +1

   <tzviya> +1

   <jeff> +1


   <koalie> Judy: +1

   <koalie> +1

   tink: that's useful to get a sense on the record of how people
   are thinking

  Change of Chairs for this group

   tink: koalie and I have too much else going on our lives to
   feel we can continue chairing this CG
   … we will both be stepping down at the end of this year
   … with your help, we need to find other people to take forward
   the activities here
   … It's up to the CG how we take this forward
   … if people want to volunteer that's fine

   judy: this is really important work for all of w3c and would be
   willing to help but would be really interested to chat with you
   … and it sounds like we would need some other folks as well
   … this is something that definitely needs cochairing
   … I'd be interested to talk with you

   tink: happy to talk about that

   chaals: I'm not sure I'm in a position to actually volunteer,
   but potentially.. I think it would be helpful to put out a
   general call and say we would like people ot know that you're
   stepping down and we'd like other people to step up
   … and then the question is are we going to blessed with
   sufficient volunteers that we have to work out how to choose,
   or will we be struggling to drag someone kicking and screaming
   … if it's the happy case of having more volunteers than we
   need, we need to think about how to make that selection
   … an item for an agenda..

   jeff: if we end up in the happy place that we have more
   volunteers than slots, there is so much work to be done ,we
   will find a way to channel all the energy people are willing to
   put into this
   … if they're willing to do the work they don't necessarily need
   the title - we'll invent a title for them

   <chaals> [+1 to the people who have been anonymously (but
   deservedly) thanking Koalie and Tink for the work they have

   koalie: yes chaals, we should issue a call
   … we didn't say it, but it's something we should do and we
   intend to do that
   … Also want to extend my heartfelt thanks to leonie for the
   excellent work she's been doing leading this group

   tink: thank you koalie, and thank you for all our help making
   it possible

   judy: do you plan to have two meetings in december?

   tink: good question, not sure when they fall.... I don't see
   why not

   judy: would be good in terms of momentum to announce those

   tink: we have a calendar, the agendas do go out 24 hours in
   advance, and they're a regular fixture in the first and third
   … not sure how else to make the meetings visible

   judy: folks might have missed this one because they were
   sorting out local calendars
   … there were questions about UTC time
   … just a confirmatory message on time and dates would be great

   jeff: I'd like to congratulate the chairs for what they've
   … if you look at to what extend is inclusion and diversity and
   values on the map of the consortium, how much wer'e talking
   about it, compared to 3 years ago, we've made enormous progress
   … it's probably hard to see that maybe in terms of measurable
   … we have a lot more to go
   … but it's so much more in the conversation than it ever was
   and the chairs deserve a lot of credit

   <koalie> [16]w3c blog search on "diversity"

     [16] https://www.w3.org/blog/?s=diversity

  Update on action items

   tink: anybody have any action update to report?
   … I have finally got the last of the volunteers for the open
   office hours to give me their contact details for the table

   <koalie> [17]IDCG issues

     [17] https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/

   <koalie> [18]Issue 11: Hold open office hours

     [18] https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/11

   tink: I'd like to try and work with koalie and others to frame
   a blog post we can use to launch that and start getting word
   out to the community that there are those of us available for
   conversations about being part of the w3c community for groups
   who are typically underrepresented
   … any others?
   … Next meeting on the first Tuesday of December is Tuesday 1st.
   I'll send out a confirmation
   … Thanks everyone for making it today
   … Let's keep focussing on actions in the meantime

    Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
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Coralie Mercier  -  W3C Marketing & Communications -  https://www.w3.org
mailto:coralie@w3.org +337 810 795 22 https://www.w3.org/People/Coralie/

Received on Tuesday, 17 November 2020 17:49:07 UTC