Minutes June 18 Re: ID CG meeting

Available at https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-idcg-minutes.html


And in text here in case that is convenient:

W3C Inclusion and Diversity CG 18 June 2020

Attendees
Present
annette_greiner, barbara_hochgesang, chaals_nevile, coralie_mercier,  
dan_appelquist, florian_rivoal, Jaeun_Jemma_Ku, jeff_jaffe, judy_brewer,  
marisa_demeglio, melanie_richards, rhian_jones, shawn_henry,  
tess_o'connor, tzviya_siegman, wendy_reid, wendy_seltzer

Chair
Léonie_Watson

Scribe
dka_, koalie

Contents
0. Introductions
1. CG statement in support of Black Lives Matter?
2. Short list of actions to take forward
3. Recurring meetings of the IDCG?

Meeting minutes

Item 0: Introductions

Léonie: intros...

[we go around the call and do intros]

Item 1: CG statement in support of Black Lives Matter?

Léonie: agenda was high level.. 2 items - one is to talk about this CG  
making a statment in support of BLM
… other was to look at ideas colected so far.
… find onese people inetrested in taking forward
… for those unfamiliar with W3c meeting pracitces, we are using IRC ...
… The big question - do we want to make a statement as the CG. There has  
been support on the list. Something to be aware of - we are a CG and we  
don't represent the w3c as a whole. We have to phrase it very clearly.
… to be on behalf of this CG and not on behalf of w3c.

WendyR: I think several people have brougt up the topic of a statement. I  
think it would be lovely but it would not hold the weight we want to  
communicate. The "diversity" group would implicitly be in favour.
… but what does it has to say about w3c that it's this CG and not the w3c  
as a whole...
… I understand that as an international consortium... there may be issues,  
but as many people have talked about online, silence is not good.
… people will ask their employers in the future - and will ask w3c in the  
future ... [were they in support of this]
… so i think this message should come from the w3c proper.

<dka_> +1

<tzviya> +1 to wendyreid

Jeff: I think wendy raises some good points. But to share information: w3c  
as an organisation is consrtained. But we did think it's important to make  
some statement. About 2 weeks aog, coralie helped to put together a tweet.

<jeff> In a time of upheaval, we are proud that our W3C community values  
include standing against prejudice, racism and discrimination.

<jeff> See our Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct:  
https://‌w3.org/‌Consortium/‌cepc

<koalie> https://‌twitter.com/‌w3c/‌status/‌1268558233586880514

Jeff: we didn't think the membership empowered us to issue a statement  
supporting BLM but we did think we could issue a statement against racism  
and discrimination.

Annette: I agree with what wendy is saying - having it from a community  
groups weakens it.
… I also want to point out: there are constraints on what we can say. But  
I do wonder if we could craft something that would get larger approval. If  
we are able to point to real actions

<jeff> +1 to Annette's suggestion

<koalie> <koalie> +1 to "a matter a fact" makes it difficult for AC to  
vote against

<tzviya> +1 to annette_g - make it news, not a policy statement

Annette: that we are taking then it would be a matter of fact. I suggest  
we craft a statement about wat we are doing.

<wendyreid> +1 to Annette

<melanierichards> +1, I like the idea of coming from fact/action

Annette: I think the Tweet [jeff mentions] points at what we have been  
doing but I think it could be interpereted as "we think we've done" - but  
I felt like there may be room for thouught or improvement.

<dka_> +1

<Zakim> Barb_H, you wanted to ask about statement question

<chaals> [+1 to being publicly clear that we have room for improvement and  
should acknowledge that. (And then get on with *doing*]

Barb: high level question: besides the w3c I'm active in IEEE and  
gracehopper and womenwhocode... and I found those communities have made a  
much stronger statement than the w3c did. If other orgs can do it, how  
were they able?
… happy to share Grace Hopper's statement. Some people on boards of  
both... other orgs have been able to give stronger statements.

Léonie: tell me about those orgs? are they single entity orgs? i suspect  
that might be where the differences lie since w3c has 400+ members...?

Barb: grace hopper - is a org - it's world wide. IEEE as well. If you  
benchmark yourself by other orgs do you feel your statement is in line  
with what other orgs have done.

<chaals> [IMHO IEEE is the closest of those three to W3C (but that might  
just reflect my greater familiarity with it)]

Marisa: I do agree with Annette - why not go for larger approval. I think  
the w3c should make a statement. A statement from this CG doesn't look  
good. If we do make a statement then we should suggest specific actions.
… regarding the statement w3c already made, what struck me is that the  
code of conduct is great for people already at the table but our table is  
not diverse and we need to improve this table.

<wendyreid> +1 Marisa!

Florian: I am in agreement with Annette. The tweet was well intended but I  
would rather say what we can do better rather than talk about what we've  
done already.
… we haven't done good enough.
… we need to communicate about what we are doing.
… just saying "black lives matter" and not linking it to attempts to self  
improvement then it would be hipocritcal -
… if we start doing things then it's natural to communicate about what we  
are doing.

<Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on "did we say that we are done"?

<jeff>  
https://‌www.w3.org/‌blog/‌2020/‌06/‌diversity-and-inclusion-at-w3c-2020-update-future-of-the-w3c-diversity-fund/  
We must start, reflecting on our times, by saying clearly that we need to  
do a lot more to improve our diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI)  
including race, gender and disability. We have a long way to go, and we’d  
like to start taking steps to correct it.

Jeff: I wanted to agree - it would be terrific if we can come up with a  
proposed statement that we take to the larger org. Some people were  
concerned that the tweet indicates we're resting on our laurels.
… The blog post i wrote says we have a lot more to do. We havea long way  
to go and we want to start taking steps.

<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about actions and leading the web to  
its full potential

Jeff: if anyone saw the tween and concluded we think we're done, please  
point them to the blog pist.

Tzviya: we need to come up with a unified statement...
… in the past when we've discussed policy we've discussed net neutrality...
… i understand that the AC might balk at this but the discussions of  
getting involved in politics and polciy statements... and are we
… going to make statements about injustice around the world are legit, but  
should not stop us from saying something...
… i think we should not be silent.
… i think we should work on a list of actions.

<Zakim> chaals, you wanted to talk about moving straight to action, and  
some thoughts about a statement

<annette_g> +1 for action

<Zakim> Judy, you wanted to lean towards action; then being able to  
promote those commitments as a statement of fact; and to looking at  
everything we're doing, and prioritize some things those discussions could  
take up a lot of time and distract us from actually doing things that we  
could of course report immediately.

Chaals: yes. I agree with all that Florian said and I suspect with what  
Judy is about to say. saying some people's lives matter may start  
discussion about other groups whose lives also matter and I would hate  
that to end up distracting us from action that makes real improvement.

Judy: a lot of voices talking about action. I think from my perspective we  
should take this as an opportunity to review - how are we talking about  
diversity in general.

<Barb_H> Comments - Example from Grace Hopper - Wlorld's largest community  
in women in computing. The Anita Borg/GHC org held a panel discus on  
Candid Conversation building Antiracist society. I attended the session  
and thought was a positive opportunity for their community to share.  
https://‌community.anitab.org/‌event/‌anitab-org-presents-a-candid-conversation-building-an-antiracist-society/

Judy: how can we address racial injustice? Let's get more people at the  
table. I hope we come up with an aciton plan incuding outreach,  
recruitment, engagement... intersectional. ..
… jeff the diversity blog was well timed. If it's possible to do this as a  
front page news item it would be better.

<dka_> +1

Léonie: what seems to be emerging is that we should craft a statement in  
support of BLM and diversity in geenral and for that statement to include  
a list of actions we are taking to change things and to share that with  
the AC.
… asking for support.

Judy: I think that sounded good.
… usually AC review of w3c statements takes weeks. there is a timliness  
issue. perhaps ab members could make a suggestion of how to expedite  
things?

<tink> PROPOSED: We will craft a statement in support of BLM specifically  
and diversity in general. The statement will include the actions we are  
taking in support of our statement. We will share this with the AC and ask  
for their consent to publish it on behalf of the W3C.

<dka_> +1

<tzviya> +1

<wendyreid> +1

<annette_g> +1

<koalie> <koalie> +1

<chaals> [As one AB member I think you'll have a hard time getting done in  
less than 4 weeks while keeping to our agreed processes]

<Barb_H> +1

<hober> +1

<melanierichards> +1

<marisa> +1

<wseltzer> +1

<Judy> +1

<tink> +1

<Rhian> +1

<koalie> [14 +1, no zeros, no -1; there are 18 participants at the time of  
the poll]]

<Jemma> +1

<koalie> s/no 01/no -1/

<chaals> [+1 to looking at process issues separately]

[discussion that the process discussion should be taken out fo the meeting]

<tink> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌wiki/‌Ideas-for-ID-CG-actions


Item 2: Short list of actions to take forward

Léonie: if we can come out of this with a small number of concrete actions  
...
… some of these will take more effort to achieve.

Dan: I was going to add one thing
… punctuate the issue a bit
… I feel this is an existential problem at W3C
… I've brought people of colour at W3C who were appalled by the diversity
… it's indicative that we are having a discussion about how to support  
black lives matter yet have no black people on this call.

<tzviya> +1000 to dka_

<wendyreid> +1000

Dan: to that point, one thing I added to the list and feel strongly about
… is the idea of not just supporting IEs to do work
… but try to actively paying people from marginalized groups
… to do the engineering work that groups requires
… not just WGs
… CGs as well
… I feel that the discussion about IEs misses the point
… we should try to seed the community to be more diverse
… so next time we're trying to discuss this, we're not a bunch of white  
people talking about black lives matter

<wendyreid> +1

<hober> +1

<Zakim> Barb_H, you wanted to ask about outreach

Barb: i want to agree with dan on a high level - coming from my  
experience, i participate in university programs to improve diversity -  
there is a pipeline - how do we get recruits, how do we make them feel  
welcome...
… and how do we promote them to leadership.
… how to improve recruitment, how to improve their experience...

<chaals> [+1 to work out how to get people into W3C, *and* to set them up  
for success (paying people is a valid approach to that)]

Barb: 2nd point: external outreach (e.g. Grace Hopper) largest women in  
computing community out there- bringing women into open source. we could  
go to grace hopper to advocate participation in w3c.
… could take that to multiple organisations.
… Also outreach within - holding panel discussion at TPAC on this where we  
listen to people - listen to the w3c community.
… do some outreach to w3c community as well. outreach and pipeline is  
critical.

Marisa: so going back to where we started the ideas on the wiki list. I  
like the idea of a [?] review board.

<marisa> https://‌www.w3.org/‌2020/‌06/‌machine-learning-workshop/

<tzviya> +1

Marisa: looking at an upcoming workshop. A lot of talks about javascript  
but no discussion of algorithm bias.
… we should suggets that they reopen their cfp.

<chaals> [+1 to having clear discussions on questions of how are we doing  
and how do we do better as part of W3C]

Judy: that is in progress.

<Judy> [JB: the ML workshop call for proposals is still open; they are  
aware of AI bias issues; they have made invitations on that.]

WendyR: 100% agree with Dan - i've added the stuff about expanding the  
invited experts to provide more funding for the incidentals of attendence  
- webcam, microphone, bandwidth charges...

<shawn> +1 for supporting Internet access along with equipment

WendyR: the other thing is child and elder care.
… single parents, eldery parents in their homes.
… I also agree that I would like to pay people for their participation -  
e.g. freelancers or part time employees. can be a drain on resources. Part  
of the idea of sponsorship - I'd love to see more junior people coming to  
w3c meetings, f2f, tpac, etc...
… people [junior] might not know that w3c is there and might not think  
they belong there.
… how do we make it safe for people to take those chances. Some junior  
employees might be interested but might have not done it.

<Barb_H> Comment - AI/ML - MIT Lab  
https://‌www.hrwfilmfestivalstream.org/‌film/‌coded-bias/ - When MIT Media  
Lab researcher Joy Buolamwini discovers that most facial-recognition  
software misidentifies women and darker-skinned faces, as a woman of color  
working in a field dominated by white males, she is compelled to  
investigate further.

WendyR: I also participate in canadian women in computing conferences -  
200 women engineers working n software - all eager to get into careers and  
don't know about standards.

<dka_> +1

Tzviya: many great suggestions. we're all pretty much in agreement.  
volunteering for specific items. i am the co-chair of the group working on  
the cepc. Makes things more comfortable. I will volunteer for the
… item about making things more comfortable. People join a working group  
and get scared off.

<dka_>+1 - based on personal experience of sending a new person into a wg.

Tzviya: it can be overwhelming. i've seen one black person at tpac ..  
ever. it's unfomfortable.
… it's an unpleasant experience.
… we have to figure out ways to make things more comfortable and more  
welcoming at w3c.

<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about recruitment and treatment of  
members

<Zakim> Judy, you wanted to reflect on how we evaluate different potential  
actions, and to add one about partnering with some organizations to  
accelerate our work in some ways

Judy: so one reason I put a diverse list of actions - aything on the list  
has shortcomings .. most of these are necessary to pursue..
… I thnk we're missing something - partnering with organisations that are  
working in racial justice in computing.
… I'd be happy to help.
… see if we can agree on which ones to do.
… by the way the ML need for AI bias got picked up by horizontal review.  
so sometimes a HR can pick these up. We could need an equity review board.  
or a DEI board.

<Zakim> florian, you wanted to respond to dan about IE

Florian: I'm an IE. I have paid other invited experts. I should be able to  
contribute to it.
… among the problems we have is the entrance to the community - we should  
have a look - even though we have w3c in the US we have [few Black people  
as staff.]

WendyR: some of these things have lots of procedural steps - others can be  
actioned right away. I

<Zakim> jeff, you wanted to actualize Barbara's suggestions about Hopper  
and the next AC meeting

WendyR: am interested in working on some of these issues in the team. I  
like the equity review board idea. I can help move work through procedural  
issues.

<Judy> [JB: Pushes back to Florian on "we can't control who the Members  
send" which is what W3C told itself for year about women's participation  
-- and yet, when we started to encourage Members to think about diversity  
when encouraging participation in W3C, it had a major impact.]

<shawn> [ Shawn also volunteers for Helping people feel welcome ]

Jeff: I'm willing to sign up. we need to get out of this meeting some  
agreement. 2 of barb's suggestions would be easy to do - approach Grace  
Hopper... also put a spot light at this at the AC meeting - I'm willing to  
make a committment that we put inclusion & diversity at w3c on the agenda.

<Barb_H> Comment - GHC - Happy to help I was part of the Open Source Sub  
Commitee and know how the sessions and selection process work

<florian> JB, sorry, I was too quick. We can, and should, encourage  
members, to send more diverse participants. I fully support doing that. I  
just mean that we have more control than mere encouragement over our own  
recruitment.

Tess: volunteering to work making things more welcoming - as often the  
only trans person in the room i feel less welcome sometimes - i want to  
help witht hat- i think a ERB is a good idea.

<chaals> [I am interested in working alongside Florian on getting money  
for people to enable participation. I'm also still trying to figure out  
how to do the "more welcoming thing" in practice]

Tess: idea from left field: one thing we've heard on this call - each of  
us outside this, we hear "it's a member consortium so the members send who  
they send' i think we can do a lot here.

<annette_g> comment on GHC - there is a long history of black racial  
equity taking a back seat to the women's movement, hence there is  
sensitivity in the BLM movement to that. I would not support adding  
presence at GHC as a response to this issue, though I think it is a good  
idea on its own merits.

<koalie> [We can't get that data, because we're not tracking it, hober]

Tess: Jeff sends the diversity report- charts & graphs - but what is  
missing is charts and graphs of people in working groups. So it might be  
challenging to gather the demographic info to make a report like that but  
I think it would be worth explorting.

<koalie> [the data we compile every year is compiled manually]

Tess: maybe more agressively: sending an annual report to member companies  
highligting the (non) diversity of the participants they send.
… maybe naming and shaming would encourage people to do something.

Dan: Happy to work with Florian
… +1 to equity board

<Barb_H> Happy to Outreach program

<jeff> +1 to a regular meeting

<Judy_> +1 to Annette's clarification wrt the GHC conference partnering;  
one has to be aware of the history, and increasing participation there  
isn't the same as directly acting on BLM issues.

Dan: support what tess said, volunteering for help with IEs, support ERB

<wendyreid> +1

<annette_g> +1 to equity board as well

Léonie: can we make this a meeting every month? more frequently?

Item 3: Recurring meetings of the IDCG?

Jeff: more frequently.

<Jemma> +1 for monthly meeting

Judy: i propose at least every other week for first 2 months.

Léonie: let's put it in as a regular weekly meeting.

<wendyreid> +1 weekly

<chaals> [every other week sounds OK…]

<koalie> <koalie> +1 to weekly

<shawn> +1 for frequent meetings until we get things going

Dan: i support at least doing this next week.

<annette_g> +1 weekly

<Rhian> +1

<chaals> [thanks dka for scribing]

Léonie: thanks everyone for coming along. Thanks to wendy for your email.

<koalie> thanks wendyreid for kick starting us

<koalie> thanks tink

<koalie> and thanks dka_

<koalie> I'll clean up the minutes

<florian> every other week seems good, especially if it can stay in sync  
with AB schedule, so that it falls on the same night (it is a night  
meeting)

<koalie> bye all!

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl  
version 121 (Mon Jun 8 14:50:45 2020 UTC).

On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 22:19:07 +1000, Léonie Watson  
<lwatson@tetralogical.com> wrote:

> Everyone,
>
> We'll meet on Thursday 18 June at 3pm UTC.
>
>
> This should help with time conversions I hope:
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=ID+CG+meeting&iso=20200618T15&p1=%3A&ah=1
>
>
> We'll send out Zoom information and an agenda next week.
>


-- 
Charles "chaals" Nevile
PegaSys Standards Architect, ConsenSys

Received on Thursday, 25 June 2020 17:40:42 UTC