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RE: Overide #2 (NA and GA)

From: <jrmt@almas.co.jp>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 07:54:28 +0900
To: "'Richard Wordingham'" <richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com>
Cc: <public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
Message-ID: <000201d0e43f$fe64b5f0$fb2e21d0$@almas.co.jp>
Hi Richard,

> There's a word _kino_ 'theater' (or is it 'cinema'?) whose natural encoding is <KA, I, NA, O, FVS1> (i.e. no tail for the O).  
> That is written with a dotted NA, and that is what one would expect.  
You are right here. We are only included medial vowel cases. The the word _kino_ will be excluded from our logic.
Maybe I can improve the expression to match our font current logic.

O U+1828 N ←First Medial Form (un-dotted medial NA)
If   (Initial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Medial Vowel+ is not final FVS1-3) OR  (Medial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Medial Vowel+ is not final FVS1-3) 
	then N ← Second Medial Form (dotted medial NA)

But maybe it is not still not completeness to handle all of cases as we know. I will check it with Siqin.

But as my point of view, it is best to NIRUGU under this medial NA to remain un-dotted form. The NIRUGU will prevent the contextual override of the following vowel.
If we define this as rule in our list. It will prevent the same form appears twice on our mapping list.
What do you think of it ? It can be used to the medial GA cases as well.

> What of compounds whose second elements start <NA, OE> or <NA, UE>?  
> Do they use the first or second medial form, and if the latter, is not the NA dotted?  
> One needs a complete list of vowels. Some may need more research than others - 
> Todo, Sibe and Manchu vowels all need to be considered.
What I mean here is, for example, the medial OE, UE if it is in the first syllable, it will be override to medial <OE, FVS1>, medial <UE, FVS1>.
When we really want display the default medial form in the first syllable in any reason, we still need similar overrides for OE, UE.
But I don't really want to expand this to widely, because it is irregular case itself and it will increase the complexities.

My suggestion is decrease the complexities using NIRUGU. (We can remain the I override #2 there for NAIMA)

I am going out for meeting now. I will add comment for following part if it is necessary to discuss the other character override rule.
I am really do not want to expand it widely as I mentioned above.

Thanks and Regards,


Jirimutu
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-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Wordingham [mailto:richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2015 4:12 AM
To: jrmt@almas.co.jp
Cc: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
Subject: Re: Overide #2 (NA and GA)

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 21:52:42 +0900
<jrmt@almas.co.jp> wrote:

> Hi Greg and Richard,
> 
> Maybe my hurried answers in this morning from hotel is making you two 
> confused. Because the font we are using is not same. Actually, the NA 
> in Altanodu should be un-dotted NA, even it is followed by Vowel O.
> We are using "NA followed by abnormal <O, FVS1>" as the condition to 
> keep the medial NA as un-dotted.

The reason we're having these discussions is that font behaviours are inconsistent.  My email client either isn't even invoking the shaping engine, or is picking up a font without a GSUB table for Mongolian.


 
> For the medial NA case, let me explain more in details.
> As the Greg's Orverride rule,
> 
> OverRide #2
> U+1828 N ←First Medial Form (un-dotted medial NA)
> If   (Initial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Vowel) OR
> (Medial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Vowel) then N ← Second Medial Form (dotted 
> medial NA) If (N+FVS2)
>       /*This is OverRide #2 over-riding normal grammatical rulings 
> special case of compound names*/ then N ← Third Medial Form (un-dotted 
> medial NA)
> 
> 
> But we are handling the compound names as bellow now. 
> Because as we know all of the override case is the un-dotted medial NA 
> follows the vowel, but the vowel will be written as the abnormal forms 
> with one tooth. U+1828 N ←First Medial Form (un-dotted medial
> NA) If   (Initial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Vowel+ is not FVS1-3) OR
> (Medial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Vowel+ is not FVS1-3) then N ← Second Medial 
> Form (dotted medial NA)

There's a word _kino_ 'theater' (or is it 'cinema'?) whose natural encoding is <KA, I, NA, O, FVS1> (i.e. no tail for the O).  That is written with a dotted NA, and that is what one would expect.  What of compounds whose second elements start <NA, OE> or <NA, UE>?  Do they use the first or second medial form, and if the latter, is not the NA dotted?  One needs a complete list of vowels. Some may need more research than others - Todo, Sibe and Manchu vowels all need to be considered.

> As my point of view, it is ok to prepare this <NA, FVS2> override 
> mapping rule for medial NA. But we consider all of these kind of 
> characters which have contextual toggles. Maybe you say it is only the 
> medial (I, NA, GA), final GA exist this problem.

> I can raise medial (OE, UE, QA, DA, YA, WA, ) additionally, even if 
> there are no proper word example, maybe we need to write one mistaken 
> word to show the mistake. Do we need to prepare this kind of extra 
> mapping encoding ? Our solution is that we do not need this kind of 
> extra encoding rule for these requirement. We only use NIRUGU or ZWJ 
> to clear the contextual rules and show the default form.

GB/T 26226-2010 Table A makes interesting reading.  According to that, medial <UE, FVS1> can be the first or second form, presumably according to context - FVS1 must be meant to be a context-sensitive toggle.  It's not obvious to me why the same need wouldn't arise for OE - initial <QA,
OE> or <GA, OE> with first medial OE would be perfectly readable.

I think that deliberately representing word- and syllable-final QA is wrong.  Final QA makes sense only because of MVS, and I'm not sure that it is correct to call QA before MVS final.  If one wants to write word- or syllable-final QA, I think one should write GA instead.  I can see a justification for a feminine final QA glyph - it prevents final QA being used for *masculine* final GA when the context suggests it should be feminine.  

DA and YA may be worth addressing.  If one looks at http://www.unicode.org/~asmus/mongolian/Alldraft01.xls , one can see
FVS1 being used as a toggle for YA.  Differences are natural, for DA and YA are each mixes of two real letters.

Richard.
Received on Monday, 31 August 2015 22:55:07 UTC

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