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Re: Overide #2 (NA and GA)

From: Richard Wordingham <richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:12:07 +0100
To: <jrmt@almas.co.jp>
Cc: <public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20150831201207.4e236a4f@JRWUBU2>
On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 21:52:42 +0900
<jrmt@almas.co.jp> wrote:

> Hi Greg and Richard,
> Maybe my hurried answers in this morning from hotel is making you two
> confused. Because the font we are using is not same. Actually, the NA
> in Altanodu should be un-dotted NA, even it is followed by Vowel O.
> We are using "NA followed by abnormal <O, FVS1>" as the condition to
> keep the medial NA as un-dotted.

The reason we're having these discussions is that font behaviours are
inconsistent.  My email client either isn't even invoking the shaping
engine, or is picking up a font without a GSUB table for Mongolian.

> For the medial NA case, let me explain more in details.
> As the Greg's Orverride rule, 
> OverRide #2 
> U+1828 N ←First Medial Form (un-dotted medial NA)
> If   (Initial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Vowel) OR
> (Medial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Vowel) then N ← Second Medial Form (dotted
> medial NA) If (N+FVS2) 
>       /*This is OverRide #2 over-riding normal grammatical rulings
> special case of compound names*/ then N ← Third Medial Form
> (un-dotted medial NA)
> But we are handling the compound names as bellow now. 
> Because as we know all of the override case is the un-dotted medial
> NA follows the vowel, but the vowel will be written as the abnormal
> forms with one tooth. U+1828 N ←First Medial Form (un-dotted medial
> NA) If   (Initial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Vowel+ is not FVS1-3) OR
> (Medial_Vowel+N+Mongolian_Vowel+ is not FVS1-3) then N ← Second
> Medial Form (dotted medial NA)

There's a word _kino_ 'theater' (or is it 'cinema'?) whose natural
encoding is <KA, I, NA, O, FVS1> (i.e. no tail for the O).  That is
written with a dotted NA, and that is what one would expect.  What of
compounds whose second elements start <NA, OE> or <NA, UE>?  Do they
use the first or second medial form, and if the latter, is not the NA
dotted?  One needs a complete list of vowels. Some may need more
research than others - Todo, Sibe and Manchu vowels all need to be

> As my point of view, it is ok to prepare this <NA, FVS2> override
> mapping rule for medial NA. But we consider all of these kind of
> characters which have contextual toggles. Maybe you say it is only
> the medial (I, NA, GA), final GA exist this problem.

> I can raise medial (OE, UE, QA, DA, YA, WA, ) additionally, even if
> there are no proper word example, maybe we need to write one mistaken
> word to show the mistake. Do we need to prepare this kind of extra
> mapping encoding ? Our solution is that we do not need this kind of
> extra encoding rule for these requirement. We only use NIRUGU or ZWJ
> to clear the contextual rules and show the default form.

GB/T 26226-2010 Table A makes interesting reading.  According to that,
medial <UE, FVS1> can be the first or second form, presumably according
to context - FVS1 must be meant to be a context-sensitive toggle.  It's
not obvious to me why the same need wouldn't arise for OE - initial <QA,
OE> or <GA, OE> with first medial OE would be perfectly readable.

I think that deliberately representing word- and syllable-final QA is
wrong.  Final QA makes sense only because of MVS, and I'm not sure
that it is correct to call QA before MVS final.  If one wants to
write word- or syllable-final QA, I think one should write GA
instead.  I can see a justification for a feminine final QA glyph -
it prevents final QA being used for *masculine* final GA when the
context suggests it should be feminine.  

DA and YA may be worth addressing.  If one looks at
http://www.unicode.org/~asmus/mongolian/Alldraft01.xls , one can see
FVS1 being used as a toggle for YA.  Differences are natural, for DA and
YA are each mixes of two real letters.

Received on Monday, 31 August 2015 19:12:51 UTC

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