- From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 07:16:31 +0100
- To: public-i18n-arabic@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html
text version follows:
Arabic Layout Requirements 3rd Weekly Meeting
06 Oct 2015
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-irc
Attendees
Present
najib, r12a, Shervin, mostafa, Sallar, Behnam, Waseem
Regrets
Chair
Behnam
Scribe
shervin, Behnam, r12a
Contents
* [3]Action item review
* [4]Summary of Action Items
* [5]Comments
from the participants regarding topic keywords
* [6]Addition of layout of Quranic text to special cases
(together with poetry and math)
* [7]Planning for start of work on glossary
__________________________________________________________
Action item review
<Shervin>
[8]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#ActionSummar
y
[8] http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#ActionSummary
ACTION: Behnam to research the existing experts for other
languages like Urdu. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action04]
<Shervin> ...Behnam put together list of experts to be
contacted later.
ACTION: Mostafa to reach out to experts in Iran. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
<Shervin> ...Mostafa's working on more recruits.
ACTION: r12a to check regarding processing of the minutes and
get back to the group. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action07]
<Shervin> ...Richard on publishing the minutes. Access to CVS
is needed which is not available right now. In the meantime,
Richard will help us with those.
ACTION: Richard to send an email to folks at German Univ. in
Oman. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action03]
<Shervin> ...Richard sent email to Oman's German University,
cc-ing Tom Milo.
ACTION: Shervin and Behnam to have the agenda for next
meetings. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action06]
<Shervin> ...Shervin and Behnam set up the meeting and agenda.
ACTION: Shervin to put together a preliminary list of existing
literature. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action05]
<Shervin> ...Shervin was to put together a list of existing
literature. Currently working on it.
<Shervin> Behnam: Asks what's the best way to share files.
Richard probably on git repo.
<Shervin> Behnam: Asks about action item protocol. Richard:
They probably remain until we close them.
shervin: sent email to org in Qatar
... to see if they would be interested
Introductions
shervin: Waseem is from Syria (working at Netflix) should help
us with recruiting from Lebanon, etc
... Qatar Computing Research Institute, contact was Majd Abbar
Mostafa: We have Sallar this week. He'll introduce himself
shortly. Other people are on the list to be contacted. Will
update the group.
Sallar: Worked in the web industry for 15 years. Currently with
an advertising company in Finland. Interested in topics of
Arabic script.
... Struggling with issues of Arabic-speak over the years in
CSS, etc.
... Javascript and node.js experience.
Najib: I'll try to recruit a calligraphist from Tunesia.
... Attend and participate for comments.
Comments from the participants regarding topic keywords.
Mostafa: Filed a Github issue.
<r12a> [9]https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/2
[9] https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/2
Mostafa: Link to Github issue:
[10]https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/2
[10] https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/2
Shervin: Let's see if people have comments, first.
Shervin: After that we can let Mostafa introduce the Github
issue.
r12a: Any ideas about prioritization?
... Justification and elongation seems to be a priority.
Behnam: Last week we talked about glossary to have a
precedence.
... Justification might depend on previous chapters.
... We might not have a solid starting point to start that.
r12a: Dig out the questions regarding CSS struggling with
Arabic script.
... e.g. letter spacing.
... How Arabic does letter spacing? Elongation? Instances where
the Arabic is streched to fit the width of Latin.
... There are works being done on vertical text. Specification
is needed.
... Chinese, Mongolian with Arabic embedding. Direction might
be different; i.e. read up the line, or down the line.
... questions regarding first letter styling; drop-caps.
... There is a document called @@@ where you can define counter
styles.
... these are topics that come to mind.
<r12a> [11]http://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/
[11] http://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/
<r12a>
[12]http://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/#arabic-styl
es
[12] http://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/#arabic-styles
r12a: Counter styles document
[13]http://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/
[13] http://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/
Behnam: We can certainly take this and comment on that.
... Can be done separately as an external source.
Shervin: prefers to have the groundwork of these topics in
alreq.
r12a: Our document is not much of a tech document. We don't
comment on correctness of something like CSS.
... We just refer to it.
... And another document can dive deep in terms of technology.
... We can point to alreq and say that this is the way
something can be done, it would be ideal.
... There are changes needed to be done regarding counter-style
document.
<Behnam> ACTION: Behnam to files issues on
w3c/predefined-counter-styles regarding naming and content
[recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action01]
r12a: The counter styles document can be changed any time.
r12a: Changes can be proposed in a Github issue.
Behnam: Other comments regarding the document.
Shervin: Propose Mostafa to introduce the pull request.
Mostafa: Glyph overlap issues in Arabic.
r12a: The nature of the problem of overlap?
Sallar: The opacity of letters on small joined area becomes
darker than other places.
... specifically in letter spacing of minus.
Behnam: The behaviour with letter spacing differs and we can
recommend in alreq.
Mostafa: Second item of pull request; separated but still
joining arabic letters.
Sallar: Also appear in search.
r12a: CSS working group talked about this. Browsers differ. We
should talk in the document and define the expected behaviour.
... will try to dig out some pointers.
Behnam: Moving to next issue in the pull request.
Mostafa: Mixed script font size.
... Font size is not the only property that an application
might need; e.g. baseline and line-height.
Sallar: Line-height is important as well as base-line since
letters don't fit in a squre.
Najib: Font size is one of the problems. Mixing with Latin
script. Have to play with font size in each language to have
them match. This is an issue.
r12a: Mostafa to break this into four separate issues.
<scribe> ACTION: Mostafa to break this into four separate
issues. [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
Shervin: No current document available on that. Would be great
to cover that.
Najib: Did some test with CSS Property `font-adjust` and it
doesn't work properly in browsers.
<Behnam>
[16]https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/font-size-
adjust
[16] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/font-size-adjust
Sallar: Had a similar problems. Had to edit the font for
multiple cases.
Behnam: CSS font fallback not expected to be used for mixed
script.
... recommendations of HTML/CSS standards is to mark parts of
the text.
... Tech details of CSS is out of scope of our work. Focusing
on what is required.
... We do not have the tools to generate a situation, we better
start generating images.
r12a: Agrees with Behnam. W3C i18n activity writes articles.
Anyone interested can engage.
Mostafa: The last item on the pull request; specific section in
the document to talk about numbering.
... Can refer to it from other places of the document
Addition of layout of Quranic text to special cases (together with
poetry and math).
Behnam: We have math and poetry as special cases.
... proposes to add Quran to special cases; because
traditionally, there are few specific rules.
... Also when we get to character level there are special
cases.
... e.g. Harkat glyphs above and below the baseline.
... Unicode covers most of them. This document can benefit from
this coverage.
... This special cases introduces varies features of Arabic
script other than daily usage of the text.
... e.g. in Quran manuscripts; a verse (a'yeh) can not span
over pages.
<Sallar> an example of poetry layout:
[17]https://fa.wikisource.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AB%D9%86%D9%88%DB%
8C_%D9%85%D8%B9%D9%86%D9%88%DB%8C/%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%B1_%DA%A9%D8%
B1%D8%AF%D9%86_%D9%85%D8%B1%DB%8C%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86_%DA%A9%DB%8
C_%D8%AE%D9%84%D9%88%D8%AA_%D8%B1%D8%A7_%D8%A8%D8%B4%DA%A9%D9%8
6
[17]
https://fa.wikisource.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AB%D9%86%D9%88%DB%8C_%D9%85%D8%B9%D9%86%D9%88%DB%8C/%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%B1_%DA%A9%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%86_%D9%85%D8%B1%DB%8C%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86_%DA%A9%DB%8C_%D8%AE%D9%84%D9%88%D8%AA_%D8%B1%D8%A7_%D8%A8%D8%B4%DA%A9%D9%86
r12a: Tom Milo did some proof of concepts for this.
... Is wondering if how the special case of Quran is related to
the web.
Mostafa: Put it as a Github issue. Treating Quran as a special
case; has lots of typographic requirements.
<Behnam> ACTION: Behnam to file github issues for special
cases, like Quran [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action03]
Mostafa: Some of these reqs might not be specific to Quran.
... See the requirements that Quranic case requires and see if
it's limited to Quran.
Najib: Knows contacts in Morrocan ministry of religious affairs
and can contact.
Behnam: Remind everyone that it would be great to collect
information regarding the tools used for the purpose.
<Behnam> ACTION: Gather information about Arabic-specific
Typesetting software [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action04]
r12a: Poetry and math in addition of Quranic text?
<r12a> [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/arabic-math/
[20] http://www.w3.org/TR/arabic-math/
Behnam: These are special cases. Many issues to consider.
r12a: Introduces a document on math
[21]http://www.w3.org/TR/arabic-math/
[21] http://www.w3.org/TR/arabic-math/
Behnam: When we get to math there are other sources as Arabic
LaTeX distro.
Shervin: This is a good example of how can we refer to a
document and not get into the details.
Behnam: Agrees that we can refer to the document. It's a
complicated matter.
... To keep it separate from MathML would be good as well.
Planning for start of work on glossary
<Behnam> ACTION: Behnam to file an issue re Math and whether to
exclude that in the first version [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action05]
shervin: 2 possible approaches:
... (1) look at sources and create a base glossary, eg copy
from jlreq and other docs
... just need to add translations and definitions
... ie. seed glossary
... (2) create the glossary as we create text
... so you create the glossary as you need new terms
... my preference is (1)
... what do people think?
<Najib> a mixe of 1 and 2
<r12a> behnam: i think we implicitly agreed on approach (1)
last week
Behnam: Implicitly decided to talk the first approach.
Najib: I prefer (1), but (2) is implied by (1).
r12a: Planning to do a bit of both.
... Not let it hold up.
Behnam: I hear that we don't want to be block by glossary.
r12a: We can do approach (1) straight-away, but work on the
content at the same time.
Behnam: Agrees.
<Behnam> +1
Shervin: Certainly can do it in parallel.
<Behnam> Behnam: +1 to Shervin
<r12a> +1
<mostafa> +1
<Najib> +1
Shervin: Volunteers to put a seed glossary together.
Sallar: Can help with the glossary.
Najib: Can help with glossary.
r12a: Good to ask on the list if Azzedine can help as well.
<Behnam> ACTION: Shervin to lead developing the Glossary and
ask for volunteers on the list [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action06]
<Behnam> ACTION: Richard to figure out how to maintain action
items [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action07]
<scribe> ACTION: Shervin, work with Najib and Sallar and Waseem
regarding the glossary. [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action08]
<Najib> OK
Behnam: Final comments?
... Thanks the participants. Will send an agenda.
Summary of Action Items
ACTION: Behnam to research the existing experts for other
languages like Urdu. [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action04]
ACTION: Mostafa to reach out to experts in Iran. [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
ACTION: r12a to check regarding processing of the minutes and
get back to the group. [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Shervin to put together a preliminary list of
existing literature. [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action05]
[26] http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action04
[27] http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action02
[28] http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action07
[29] http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action05
[NEW] ACTION: Behnam to file an issue re Math and whether to
exclude that in the first version [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Behnam to file github issues for special cases,
like Quran [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Behnam to files issues on
w3c/predefined-counter-styles regarding naming and content
[recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Gather information about Arabic-specific
Typesetting software [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Mostafa to break this into four separate issues.
[recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Richard to figure out how to maintain action
items [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Shervin to lead developing the Glossary and ask
for volunteers on the list [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Shervin, work with Najib and Sallar and Waseem
regarding the glossary. [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/06-alreq-minutes.html#action08]
[End of minutes]
Received on Wednesday, 7 October 2015 06:16:42 UTC