- From: thrishma reddy <thrishmareddy@gmail.com>
- Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 19:39:29 -0400
- To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
- Cc: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>, public-html <public-html@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAJe9t5RQ-0JLpC+g=7Nnqv+2DYc=jFQ7nMy0GQs7y+rA7u1+bA@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Silvia, Depreciating the @poster attribute and creating the <poster> element with alt attribute also makes sense. Who is ''THE PERSON'' that we need to discuss this with? Do you have any idea? On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 3:02 PM John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote: > Hi Thrishma, > > The problem is an architectural one: you cannot attach an attribute to > another attribute (and @poster is just that, an attribute). > > We have two visual assets: one that moves (the mp4) and one that does not > (the jpg/png/"poster') - both will potentially require text alternatives. > The video itself will also require 2 types of textual alternative: likely > a summarization of the video, as well as the captions which are actually > the text equivalent for the *audio* track. > > The solution is to recognize that the poster is another related asset > associated with the movie, but not always *part* of the movie. We already > do that today with caption files and audio description files, where both > are called as child elements of the parent <video> element. > > So, to really fix this and address the outstanding accessibility concern, > the solution would be to deprecate the @poster attribute and instead create > a <poster> element, which would be a different kind of child element (in > the same way that <track> is today). That way, we could then do something > like this: > > <video> > > <track src="" kind="captions"> > > <track src="" kind="descriptions"> <!-- audio descriptions --> > > <poster src="" alt="" aria-describedby=""> (and so on) > > </video> > > Respectfully, > > JF > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 10:32 AM thrishma reddy <thrishmareddy@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hey Silvia, >> >> So to who do we ask/raise this issue for the alt attribute to be >> included in the <video> tag? >> >> This issue has been open for years and I wish there is finally someone we >> can reach out to who would actually solve this in 2020. >> >> Thanks, >> Thrishma >> >> >> On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 2:48 AM Silvia Pfeiffer < >> silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Thrisma, >>> >>> Hmm.... you're right - it only has a "title" attribute. >>> FWIW, I think it should have an explicit "alt" attribute. >>> >>> Just my 2c worth though. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Silvia. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:02 AM thrishma reddy <thrishmareddy@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Silvia, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your reply. So when you say alt attribute for the video do >>>> you mean it looks like the below example? >>>> >>>> Example - >>>> >>>> <video width="320" height="240" poster="/images/w3schools_green.jpg" >>>> controls *alt="Bear catching a fish in a river"*> >>>> <source src="moviea.mp4" type="video/mp4"> >>>> <source src="movaie.ogg" type="video/ogg"> >>>> Your browser does not support the video tag. >>>> </video> >>>> >>>> There is no example of the video's alt attribute that I could find on >>>> the internet. >>>> >>>> I agree with you that there should be only one alternative field >>>> describing the video. The poster image is the visual summary and the alt >>>> attribute is the textual summary of the video. There is no need to have an >>>> alt attribute for the poster image as it's only purpose is to be a visual >>>> summary of the video. This is true only when there exists an alt attribute >>>> for the <video> tag as shown in the above example. Otherwise, the >>>> poster property needs to have an alt attribute. >>>> >>>> Another question for you- When the source of an image is broken we >>>> display the alt text of the <img> tag. Does the alt property (if >>>> present) for the <video> tag do the same? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Thrishma >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 4:56 PM Silvia Pfeiffer < >>>> silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey John, >>>>> >>>>> That's all a possibility, yes. >>>>> >>>>> So if your poster has different content from the video, your alt text >>>>> should include the poster description, too, because it's supported by >>>>> accessibility software. Introducing another attribute would require all >>>>> accessibility software to be updated with two text alternatives for one >>>>> element, which becomes very confusing very fast. >>>>> >>>>> Hope that helps. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Silvia. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020, 11:17 PM John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Silvia writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > In essence: the poster is a visual summarisation of the video. >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually, the poster is WAS ENVISIONED TO BE a visual >>>>>> summarisation of the video, by the former HTML5 editor, who also >>>>>> demonstrated on multiple occasions that he knew nothing of the >>>>>> accessibility space: the needs, the users, their user experience, etc. and >>>>>> he frequently demonstrated his lack of empathy in that regard. >>>>>> >>>>>> The reality is that the content author can point that @poster >>>>>> attribute to ANY graphic image URI, including interstitials and/or >>>>>> 'placeholder' slides (which may or may not contain "burned in" text >>>>>> intended for the end-user) a reality that some engineers simply refuse to >>>>>> accept as a possibility. >>>>>> >>>>>> Breaking this down: >>>>>> >>>>>> <video src="file.mp4" <!-- this is a visual asset that requires a >>>>>> text alternative, AKA an AccessibleName. Given its complexity, it also >>>>>> needs an AccessibleDescription --> >>>>>> >>>>>> poster="image.png"> <!-- this is a DIFFERENT visual >>>>>> asset that also *potentially *requires a text alternative, AKA an >>>>>> AccessibleName --> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > You only need one summary in text. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Respectfully, you are wrong. I do not know where or how you arrive at >>>>>> this assertion, but it is simply and clearly wrong: >>>>>> >>>>>> *Success Criterion 1.1.1 Non-text Content (Level A)**:* >>>>>> *All non-text content* that is presented to the user has a text >>>>>> alternative that serves the equivalent purpose... (JF: ALL, not some) >>>>>> >>>>>> The text alternative is not a "summary", it is an alternative to the >>>>>> visual representation. Any time there is an image with text burned into it >>>>>> the textual alternative is not a summarization of that text: it must be >>>>>> faithfully and accurately replicated in text that can be processed by >>>>>> machine (i.e. a screen reader). >>>>>> >>>>>> Evidence for all of this was also brought forward "back in the day", >>>>>> along with multiple impassioned and detailed explanations about this topic >>>>>> by daily screen reader users. Please, listen to the end users - they know >>>>>> better than a sighted engineer will ever understand what they need and want. >>>>>> >>>>>> JF >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 5:18 PM Silvia Pfeiffer < >>>>>> silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> There were lengthy discussions about this back in the day - you >>>>>>> should be able to Google them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In essence: the poster is a visual summarisation of the video. The >>>>>>> video's alt tag is a text summarisation of the video. You only need one >>>>>>> summary in text. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hope this helps. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> Silvia. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, May 15, 2020, 12:59 AM thrishma reddy < >>>>>>> thrishmareddy@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was wondering if there was ever any solution to the question >>>>>>>> asked here - https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/1431 (Why is there >>>>>>>> no alt attribute associated with the poster attribute on a video element >>>>>>>> (or, what's the accessible name calculation on a video element)? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Thrishma >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> *John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC >>>>>> Representative >>>>>> Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good >>>>>> deque.com >>>>>> "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." >>>>>> - Pascal >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > > -- > *John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC > Representative > Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good > deque.com > "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." - > Pascal > > > >
Received on Saturday, 23 May 2020 13:02:41 UTC