- From: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
- Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 22:23:06 +1000
- To: thrishma reddy <thrishmareddy@gmail.com>
- Cc: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>, public-html <public-html@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAHp8n2nXk7cu87zj2zJi=iSorFQzu-zvf9itg-OaHo3Fettadg@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Thrishma, You'll need to talk to the current editors if the HTML5 specification. I hope that helps. Regards, Silvia. On Wed, May 20, 2020, 9:40 AM thrishma reddy <thrishmareddy@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Silvia, > > Depreciating the @poster attribute and creating the <poster> element with > alt attribute also makes sense. > > Who is ''THE PERSON'' that we need to discuss this with? Do you have any > idea? > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 3:02 PM John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote: > >> Hi Thrishma, >> >> The problem is an architectural one: you cannot attach an attribute to >> another attribute (and @poster is just that, an attribute). >> >> We have two visual assets: one that moves (the mp4) and one that does not >> (the jpg/png/"poster') - both will potentially require text alternatives. >> The video itself will also require 2 types of textual alternative: likely >> a summarization of the video, as well as the captions which are actually >> the text equivalent for the *audio* track. >> >> The solution is to recognize that the poster is another related asset >> associated with the movie, but not always *part* of the movie. We already >> do that today with caption files and audio description files, where both >> are called as child elements of the parent <video> element. >> >> So, to really fix this and address the outstanding accessibility concern, >> the solution would be to deprecate the @poster attribute and instead create >> a <poster> element, which would be a different kind of child element (in >> the same way that <track> is today). That way, we could then do something >> like this: >> >> <video> >> >> <track src="" kind="captions"> >> >> <track src="" kind="descriptions"> <!-- audio descriptions --> >> >> <poster src="" alt="" aria-describedby=""> (and so on) >> >> </video> >> >> Respectfully, >> >> JF >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 10:32 AM thrishma reddy <thrishmareddy@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Silvia, >>> >>> So to who do we ask/raise this issue for the alt attribute to be >>> included in the <video> tag? >>> >>> This issue has been open for years and I wish there is finally someone >>> we can reach out to who would actually solve this in 2020. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Thrishma >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 2:48 AM Silvia Pfeiffer < >>> silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Thrisma, >>>> >>>> Hmm.... you're right - it only has a "title" attribute. >>>> FWIW, I think it should have an explicit "alt" attribute. >>>> >>>> Just my 2c worth though. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Silvia. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:02 AM thrishma reddy <thrishmareddy@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Silvia, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your reply. So when you say alt attribute for the video do >>>>> you mean it looks like the below example? >>>>> >>>>> Example - >>>>> >>>>> <video width="320" height="240" poster="/images/w3schools_green.jpg" >>>>> controls *alt="Bear catching a fish in a river"*> >>>>> <source src="moviea.mp4" type="video/mp4"> >>>>> <source src="movaie.ogg" type="video/ogg"> >>>>> Your browser does not support the video tag. >>>>> </video> >>>>> >>>>> There is no example of the video's alt attribute that I could find on >>>>> the internet. >>>>> >>>>> I agree with you that there should be only one alternative field >>>>> describing the video. The poster image is the visual summary and the alt >>>>> attribute is the textual summary of the video. There is no need to have an >>>>> alt attribute for the poster image as it's only purpose is to be a visual >>>>> summary of the video. This is true only when there exists an alt attribute >>>>> for the <video> tag as shown in the above example. Otherwise, the >>>>> poster property needs to have an alt attribute. >>>>> >>>>> Another question for you- When the source of an image is broken we >>>>> display the alt text of the <img> tag. Does the alt property (if >>>>> present) for the <video> tag do the same? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Thrishma >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 4:56 PM Silvia Pfeiffer < >>>>> silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey John, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's all a possibility, yes. >>>>>> >>>>>> So if your poster has different content from the video, your alt text >>>>>> should include the poster description, too, because it's supported by >>>>>> accessibility software. Introducing another attribute would require all >>>>>> accessibility software to be updated with two text alternatives for one >>>>>> element, which becomes very confusing very fast. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hope that helps. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Silvia. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020, 11:17 PM John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Silvia writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > In essence: the poster is a visual summarisation of the video. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, the poster is WAS ENVISIONED TO BE a visual >>>>>>> summarisation of the video, by the former HTML5 editor, who also >>>>>>> demonstrated on multiple occasions that he knew nothing of the >>>>>>> accessibility space: the needs, the users, their user experience, etc. and >>>>>>> he frequently demonstrated his lack of empathy in that regard. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The reality is that the content author can point that @poster >>>>>>> attribute to ANY graphic image URI, including interstitials and/or >>>>>>> 'placeholder' slides (which may or may not contain "burned in" text >>>>>>> intended for the end-user) a reality that some engineers simply refuse to >>>>>>> accept as a possibility. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Breaking this down: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <video src="file.mp4" <!-- this is a visual asset that requires a >>>>>>> text alternative, AKA an AccessibleName. Given its complexity, it also >>>>>>> needs an AccessibleDescription --> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> poster="image.png"> <!-- this is a DIFFERENT visual >>>>>>> asset that also *potentially *requires a text alternative, AKA an >>>>>>> AccessibleName --> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > You only need one summary in text. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Respectfully, you are wrong. I do not know where or how you arrive >>>>>>> at this assertion, but it is simply and clearly wrong: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Success Criterion 1.1.1 Non-text Content (Level A)**:* >>>>>>> *All non-text content* that is presented to the user has a text >>>>>>> alternative that serves the equivalent purpose... (JF: ALL, not >>>>>>> some) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The text alternative is not a "summary", it is an alternative to the >>>>>>> visual representation. Any time there is an image with text burned into it >>>>>>> the textual alternative is not a summarization of that text: it must be >>>>>>> faithfully and accurately replicated in text that can be processed by >>>>>>> machine (i.e. a screen reader). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Evidence for all of this was also brought forward "back in the day", >>>>>>> along with multiple impassioned and detailed explanations about this topic >>>>>>> by daily screen reader users. Please, listen to the end users - they know >>>>>>> better than a sighted engineer will ever understand what they need and want. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JF >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 5:18 PM Silvia Pfeiffer < >>>>>>> silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There were lengthy discussions about this back in the day - you >>>>>>>> should be able to Google them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In essence: the poster is a visual summarisation of the video. The >>>>>>>> video's alt tag is a text summarisation of the video. You only need one >>>>>>>> summary in text. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hope this helps. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> Silvia. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, May 15, 2020, 12:59 AM thrishma reddy < >>>>>>>> thrishmareddy@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was wondering if there was ever any solution to the question >>>>>>>>> asked here - https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/1431 (Why is >>>>>>>>> there no alt attribute associated with the poster attribute on a video >>>>>>>>> element (or, what's the accessible name calculation on a video element)? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Thrishma >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> *John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC >>>>>>> Representative >>>>>>> Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good >>>>>>> deque.com >>>>>>> "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it >>>>>>> shorter." - Pascal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >> -- >> *John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC >> Representative >> Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good >> deque.com >> "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." - >> Pascal >> >> >> >>
Received on Saturday, 23 May 2020 12:23:32 UTC