W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > May 2015

Re: ARIA use in HTML other than for accessibility.

From: Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 13:23:04 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+epNsd0DgxM5zW_Xc+GxY1rDsWbDJdGk9Max_fOanBLKVDkPA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>, Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>, _mallory <stommepoes@stommepoes.nl>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
I think it's reasonable approach to support multiple overlapping
dictionaries. What relates to pub stuff I think those should be made
universal enough to live without scoping.

On other note, I think we need API to let the vendor to extend ARIA
vocabulary without making the browser to implement it.

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Are their reasons against the use of prefixed role values for specific
> vocabularies?
> Example role="pub-glossary"?
>
> If there are what are they?
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>
> On 5 May 2015 at 20:24, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> > because I was having a terrible time just getting the materials I
>> needed for school in an accessible manner.
>>
>> This is an excellent use case for why the time came long ago for
>> extensions.
>>
>> It is highly unlikely that most authors know that they intend to indicate
>> that each chapter is a landmark and each sidebar is an <aside> (default
>> role ="complimentary"). What about the glossary term that pops up when the
>> user taps on the glossary term but also displays as an aggregated list at
>> the end of the chapter?  Should the ARIA mark up only the widget
>> functionality or should there be something telling the user that this is a
>> glossary term and definition embedded in <dl> and associated with the
>> glossary term in the content? Would it be valuable for there to be a role
>> indicating that a region includes assessments instead of simply providing a
>> region with a name "assessment"? This might offer some uniformity in
>> test-taking for standardized tests. These are just a few of the example
>> that publishers face as we attempt to provide accessible content to our
>> users.
>>
>> The DAISY Consortium has been publishing for years using the principles
>> that semantics (or if you prefer, inflection) guide usability and
>> accessibility. They developed a structural semantic vocabulary [3] to
>> standardize the structure of written documents.  I know countless people
>> who have relied heavily on DAISY's Digital Talking Book to learn. DAISY and
>> IDPF joined forces to create EPUB 3 [4] as the accessible publication
>> format, with the full expectation that publishers would include proper ARIA
>> markup. EPUB 3 is also the standard for digital publication that the vast
>> majority of publishers and reading systems in the world use. The EPUB
>> structural semantic vocabulary [5] evolved and continues to evolve. One of
>> the amazing things about this vocabulary is that it benefits everyone. I (a
>> publisher) can create one table of contents with extensive CSS that feeds
>> into every reading system and user agents' automated bookmarking tool to
>> generate a table of contents widget, with the help of this vocabulary. It
>> would benefit an even wider audience if there was a clear path forward to
>> map these terms to the accessibility tree.  This is not representing lazy
>> developers, but the varied audience of those developing with ARIA  and
>> taking advantage of its communication with AT.
>>
>> I don't think this will be easy, but I think the benefits greatly
>> outweigh the risks.
>>
>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2015May/0030.html
>> [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/0031.html
>> [3] http://www.daisy.org/z3998/2012/vocab/structure/
>> [4] http://idpf.org/epub/30
>> [5] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
>>
>> Tzviya Siegman
>> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
>> Wiley
>> 201-748-6884
>> tsiegman@wiley.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 7:34 PM
>> To: _mallory
>> Cc: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
>> Subject: RE: ARIA use in HTML other than for accessibility.
>>
>> > Those whom I trust as a developer to tell me accurate things aren't
>> > teaching at university. They're working as engineers right now. Most of
>> them are more familiar with the field because they're creating it
>> themselves, at companies.
>>
>> I agree that this is the case now, however I take what many companies
>> build apart every day, and I can attest from years of doing this that the
>> vast majority of mainstream developers at companies still have a very
>> limited understanding of what ARIA does and how it specifically interacts
>> with ATs, in many ways causing more problems than it solves when applied
>> without this level of understanding.
>>
>> The power in ARIA is that it directly interfaces with Assistive
>> Technologies. This is also the primary danger of it, because if developers
>> don't take this into account when using it, they can easily break
>> accessibility instead of enhancing it.
>>
>> A simple example of this is the use of role=alert when applied to a timer
>> field that counts the number of seconds displayed there. It may seem
>> useful, but since it ties into the alert system on the platform operating
>> system, it causes nothing but this information to be constantly repeated no
>> matter what a screen reader user is doing on the computer, effectively
>> hijacking their system.
>>
>> > Last time I saw "web development" in higher education, it was still
>> espousing <center> and <font> tags and everything in frames. In 2012.
>>
>> It's true that many old-school learning materials are often out of date
>> given the pace of development that we face, but that's no excuse for not
>> trying to provide better learning materials for those who are trying to
>> learn while still in school.
>>
>> When provided as E-learning materials, the same materials are available
>> to all developers whether they are enrolled in school or not, thus
>> maximizing exposure and knowledge transfer. These don't have to be books
>> necessarily, but actual interactive online materials that users can learn
>> from, provided preferably by those here at the W3C to add weight to their
>> validity. This goes beyond the scope of simple tutorials however, which is
>> where the background and platform level aspects of ARIA have to be conveyed
>> at the same time.
>>
>> This way new and learning developers won't have to continually return to
>> W3Schools for this purpose instead.
>>
>> > You have gone through this before-- was it something most people in the
>> field learned by themselves as well, or something more traditional
>> (Computer Science for example)?
>>
>> To put things into perspective, when I was in school, I was in my early
>> twenties and really had no idea what I wanted to do at that time. The
>> technology field seemed really interesting though, and everybody seemed to
>> be excited about the new developments there. I also realized just how bad
>> accessibility for technologies at that time sucked, because I was having a
>> terrible time just getting the materials I needed for school in an
>> accessible manner. Other things were going on then, and it became necessary
>> for me to find work instead of continuing my schooling. So I figured I
>> could do both and learn more about the technology field and learn
>> programming, hopefully to make things work a bit better.
>>
>> So I bought outdated eBooks on markup languages, learned them, studied
>> online resources and thousands of tutorials and blog posts, discovered how
>> many were misguided, full of mistakes and just plain wrong when it came to
>> using ATs such as screen readers with them, and had to eventually invent my
>> own system to quantify accessible dynamic content management in a way that
>> made sense and so that I could really make some progress in building
>> interactive web controls accessibly and with consistent results. This also
>> required that I learn visually oriented programming as well, such as CSS,
>> in order to understand how everything fit together when combined as fully
>> functional widgets. Since I can't see, I needed to find or invent tools
>> that would allow me to do this, and luckily as time went on others in the
>> field coming up against the same challenges were working on parallell
>> projects and we were able to share ideas and make this happen.
>>
>> None of these things were ever easy, and it's taken me over fifteen years
>> to learn and build all that I have in order to help others so that they may
>> not have to do the same as I.
>>
>> If things had been different, I would have loved to get a CS degree. I
>> don't think it would have made learning web development or ARIA any easier
>> at that time, because these disciplins weren't around then as they exist
>> now.
>>
>> The value of the times that we are in now though, gives us a unique
>> oportunity to provide real and accurate learning materials for all
>> developers, because many of these technologies are sufficiently advanced
>> and stable to allow for true education to be possible, where before they
>> were not.
>>
>> What upsets me about these circular conversations about ARIA, is the idea
>> that we need to make explaining ARIA so simple that developers don't have
>> to learn about accessibility.
>>
>> I don't have any problem with making ARIA easy to learn, it's the idea
>> that developers don't also need to understand how it effects accessibility
>> that I find to be a disservice to future developers who actually might find
>> these things interesting, instead of just onnorous.
>>
>> Going back to the original topic, I would love it if technologies had
>> in-built logic that automate accessibility especially when using ARIA. The
>> fact is though that we don't have magically advanced systems such as these
>> yet, and if future engineers are never trained in how to make them this way
>> from the outset by having a firm grasp of the concepts involved, we never
>> will.
>>
>> I apologize for the rant, but I really having been banging my head
>> against this particular wall for many years.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: _mallory [mailto:stommepoes@stommepoes.nl]
>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 7:26 AM
>> To: Bryan Garaventa
>> Subject: Re: ARIA use in HTML other than for accessibility.
>>
>> On Sun, May 03, 2015 at 04:18:22AM +0000, Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>> > > Yes tackling it in education is important. But also giving working
>> developers resoruces to learn more without the expense involved in further
>> education.
>> >
>> > I agree, but having gone through this particular gauntlet first hand, I
>> also know that such educational resources must be first written by those
>> who are most familiar with this knowledge in the field, which unfortunately
>> does go back to education.
>> >
>>
>> Those whom I trust as a developer to tell me accurate things aren't
>> teaching at university. They're working as engineers right now. Most of
>> them are more familiar with the field because they're creating it
>> themselves, at companies.
>>
>> Last time I saw "web development" in higher education, it was still
>> espousing <center> and <font> tags and everything in frames. In 2012.
>>
>> You have gone through this before-- was it something most people in the
>> field learned by themselves as well, or something more traditional
>> (Computer Science for example)?
>>
>> _mallory
>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Tuesday, 12 May 2015 17:23:36 UTC

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