W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > August 2015

Re: aria-describedat

From: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:36:37 +0200
Message-ID: <CABqxo80aNukUYiDiJd2=xsyz2Ba7_k0Ve3RbKy0-D0MgmcizYg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
Cc: public-html@w3.org, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>, "Ted O'Connor" <eoconnor@apple.com>, Markus Gylling <markus.gylling@gmail.com>, SVG WG <public-svg-wg@w3.org>, Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>, PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>, "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>, Leonie Watson <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, "David (Standards) Singer" <singer@apple.com>, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>, George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>
> it appears doable providing we get the appropriate skilled Math experts
to participate.

Happy to help and promote this on the MathWG as well.

Peter.
On Aug 11, 2015 7:25 PM, "Richard Schwerdtfeger" <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Yes, you could replace <img> with <svg> content. As you are probably aware
> MathJax supports an SVG rendering. If the appropriate semantics were
> developed for Math we could apply it to the SVG drawing for Math. This
> would require another ARIA module to be developed for Math and I am sure we
> would be some challenges but it appears doable providing we get the
> appropriate skilled Math experts to participate.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for Leonard Rosenthol ---08/10/2015 12:29:59
> PM---And in the case of SVG, you could just replacing the <i]Leonard
> Rosenthol ---08/10/2015 12:29:59 PM---And in the case of SVG, you could
> just replacing the <img> with <svg> (and all it’s children), corre
>
> From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, "Gunderson, Jon R" <
> jongund@illinois.edu>
> Cc: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>, "Ted O'Connor" <eoconnor@apple.com>,
> "Steve Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Janina Sajka <
> janina@rednote.net>, "Judy Brewer" <jbrewer@w3.org>, James Craig <
> jcraig@apple.com>, George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, Leonie Watson <
> lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, "Markus Gylling" <markus.gylling@gmail.com>, "
> public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, W3C PF - DPUB Joint
> Task Force <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, PF <
> public-pfwg@w3.org>, SVG WG <public-svg-wg@w3.org>, "David (Standards)
> Singer" <singer@apple.com>
> Date: 08/10/2015 12:29 PM
> Subject: Re: aria-describedat
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> And in the case of SVG, you could just replacing the <img> with <svg> (and
> all it’s children), correct?   What about math or canvas, would the same
> work?   I am just trying to understand if the design pattern here is
> specific to images or could work for other types of content.
>
> Thanks,
> Leonard
>
> *From: *Richard Schwerdtfeger
> * Date: *Monday, August 10, 2015 at 1:06 PM
> * To: *"Gunderson, Jon R"
> * Cc: *Michael Cooper, Ted O'Connor, Steve Faulkner, Janina Sajka, Judy
> Brewer, James Craig, "*kerscher@montana.com* <kerscher@montana.com>",
> Leonie Watson, Markus Gylling, "*public-digipub-ig@w3.org*
> <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>", W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force, HTML WG, PF,
> SVG WG, "David (Standards) Singer"
> * Subject: *RE: aria-describedat
> * Resent-From: *SVG WG
> * Resent-Date: *Monday, August 10, 2015 at 1:06 PM
>
> yes. but I would not put the in the details. I would embed that in a
> Figure with the figcaption having the details.
>
> Note: this did not make the cut for HTML5. This would be HTML 5.1. but
> right now we don't have support in IE, Edge, or Firefox.
>
> Also, given that HTML5.1 is not done I would recommed this design pattern:
>
> <figure>
> <figcaption>
> <details src="http://... foo.html">
>  <summary>Texas Roots</summary>
>  ... optional content if the URL is not retrievable. ... like your table.
> </details>
> </figcaption>
> <img src="xxxx">
> </figure>
>
> This would allow access to diagram project descriptions which could be
> rendered into details.
>
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for "Gunderson, Jon R" ---08/10/2015
> 09:14:42 AM---Rich, Is the potential coding pattern for a bar chart:]"Gunderson,
> Jon R" ---08/10/2015 09:14:42 AM---Rich, Is the potential coding pattern
> for a bar chart:
>
> From: "Gunderson, Jon R" <*jongund@illinois.edu* <jongund@illinois.edu>>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, George Kerscher <
> *kerscher@montana.com* <kerscher@montana.com>>
> Cc: Michael Cooper <*cooper@w3.org* <cooper@w3.org>>, "Ted O'Connor" <
> *eoconnor@apple.com* <eoconnor@apple.com>>, "Steve Faulkner" <
> *faulkner.steve@gmail.com* <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>, Janina Sajka <
> *janina@rednote.net* <janina@rednote.net>>, "Judy Brewer" <
> *jbrewer@w3.org* <jbrewer@w3.org>>, Leonie Watson <
> *lwatson@paciellogroup.com* <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>>, "Markus
> Gylling" <*markus.gylling@gmail.com* <markus.gylling@gmail.com>>, "
> *public-digipub-ig@w3.org* <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>" <
> *public-digipub-ig@w3.org* <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>, W3C PF - DPUB
> Joint Task Force <*public-dpub-aria@w3.org* <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>,
> HTMLWG WG <*public-html@w3.org* <public-html@w3.org>>, PF <
> *public-pfwg@w3.org* <public-pfwg@w3.org>>, SVG WG <*public-svg-wg@w3.org*
> <public-svg-wg@w3.org>>, "David (Standards) Singer" <*singer@apple.com*
> <singer@apple.com>>, James Craig <*jcraig@apple.com* <jcraig@apple.com>>
> Date: 08/10/2015 09:14 AM
> Subject: RE: aria-describedat
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Rich,
>
> Is the potential coding pattern for a bar chart:
>
> <details>
>  <summary><img src=”bar-chart.png” alt=”My bar chart></summary>
>  <table>
>    <thead>
> …
>    </thead>
>    <tbody>
> ….
>    </tbody>
>  </table>
>
> </details>
>
> This pattern could be modified to use an iframe to bring in external
> content from a URL:
>
> <details>
>  <summary><img src=”bar-chart.png” alt=”My bar chart></summary>
>  <iframe src=”bar-chart-data-table.html” aria-label=”Tabular data for bar
> chart”/>
> </details>
>
> The lack of IE/Edge (i.e. any browser for that matter) support could be
> compensated using Javascript libraries to emulate details/summary behavior.
>
> Jon
>
>
> * From:* Richard Schwerdtfeger [*mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com*
> <schwer@us.ibm.com>]
> * Sent:* Monday, August 10, 2015 8:36 AM
> * To:* George Kerscher <*kerscher@montana.com* <kerscher@montana.com>>
> * Cc:* Michael Cooper <*cooper@w3.org* <cooper@w3.org>>; Ted O'Connor <
> *eoconnor@apple.com* <eoconnor@apple.com>>; Steve Faulkner <
> *faulkner.steve@gmail.com* <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>; Janina Sajka <
> *janina@rednote.net* <janina@rednote.net>>; Judy Brewer <*jbrewer@w3.org*
> <jbrewer@w3.org>>; Leonie Watson <*lwatson@paciellogroup.com*
> <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>>; Markus Gylling <*markus.gylling@gmail.com*
> <markus.gylling@gmail.com>>; *public-digipub-ig@w3.org*
> <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>; W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force <
> *public-dpub-aria@w3.org* <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>; HTMLWG WG <
> *public-html@w3.org* <public-html@w3.org>>; PF <*public-pfwg@w3.org*
> <public-pfwg@w3.org>>; SVG WG <*public-svg-wg@w3.org*
> <public-svg-wg@w3.org>>; David (Standards) Singer <*singer@apple.com*
> <singer@apple.com>>; James Craig <*jcraig@apple.com* <jcraig@apple.com>>
> * Subject:* Re: aria-describedat
>
>
> Hi George,
>
> We are in the process of making SVG more accessible by creating much
> richer semantics that would enable an author to give the user access parts
> of the actual drawing through additional semantics and through keyboard
> navigation capability. This will be much more accessible to blind user
> providing authors are willing to create such drawings.
>
> The Details view is a a way for authors to easily show a popup help for
> end users about an object. The details object does not, however, pull in an
> external URL to populate the details. This would need to be done either at
> the server or the client. However, I suspect the problem for authors is
> that these books are not generated dynamically today so you require some
> sort of link to external help information if indeed it is significant in
> size. The other issue is that IE has yet to implement the details element.
> This is a massive problem for US Federal and state governments. From what I
> can tell, Microsoft has no plans to update IE11 and Edge has yet to
> implement <details>.
>
> It appears that the best solution would be one where:
>
>    - Details would support a source URL for content so that publishers
>    could create reusable descriptions. This could be engineered in browsers so
>    that the user's context could be moved appropriately.
>    - Greater use of SVG in digital books. However, legacy SVG
>    accessibility does not work in IE today.
>
>
> So, it appears the issues facing publishers are:
>
> - SVG accessibility is not supported in IE or Edge.
> - Details is not supported in IE or Edge.
> - Annotations are also a solution but they are a ways off. We pushed off
> accessible annotations to ARIA 2.0 for logistical reasons.
> - You need a vehicle to access reusable descriptions
> - You need a solution that will not take years to support in browsers as
> you have the attention of publishers wrt. accessibility
>
> So, going forward I am trying to assess the best avenues to address your
> problem. So, I have some questions:
>
> - What is the likelihood that publishers would support accessible SVG
> drawings? This is also an authoring tool discussion and it would require a
> greater level of understanding of accessibility.
> - If the details element were supported in all browsers and it could take
> a src attribute for content would this be a workable solution?
> - Can the publishing community accept working with Edge vs. IE? As far as
> I know no work is being done to make IE accessible.
> - Can publishers accept polyfills for IE, regardless of the solution?
> - What is the actual commitment, by publishers, to support the description
> repository of the Diagram project?
>
> It seems like aria-describedat is a stop gap to what you really want and
> the problem is really comprehensive cross-browser support for other
> features that if implemented might be a better solution.
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for James Craig ---08/06/2015 04:13:10
> AM---Thanks for taking the time to write this up, George. I apolo]James
> Craig ---08/06/2015 04:13:10 AM---Thanks for taking the time to write this
> up, George.  I apologize that I do not have sufficient time
>
> From: James Craig <*jcraig@apple.com* <jcraig@apple.com>>
> To: George Kerscher <*kerscher@montana.com* <kerscher@montana.com>>
> Cc: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Janina Sajka <
> *janina@rednote.net* <janina@rednote.net>>, PF <*public-pfwg@w3.org*
> <public-pfwg@w3.org>>, SVG WG <*public-svg-wg@w3.org*
> <public-svg-wg@w3.org>>, W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force <
> *public-dpub-aria@w3.org* <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>, Michael Cooper <
> *cooper@w3.org* <cooper@w3.org>>, Judy Brewer <*jbrewer@w3.org*
> <jbrewer@w3.org>>, Markus Gylling <*markus.gylling@gmail.com*
> <markus.gylling@gmail.com>>, *public-digipub-ig@w3.org*
> <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, HTMLWG WG <*public-html@w3.org*
> <public-html@w3.org>>, "Ted O'Connor" <*eoconnor@apple.com*
> <eoconnor@apple.com>>, "David (Standards) Singer" <*singer@apple.com*
> <singer@apple.com>>, Leonie Watson <*lwatson@paciellogroup.com*
> <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>>, Steve Faulkner <*faulkner.steve@gmail.com*
> <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>
> Date: 08/06/2015 04:13 AM
> Subject: Re: aria-describedat
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for taking the time to write this up, George.
>
> I apologize that I do not have sufficient time for in-depth point-by-point
> rebuttals, and it is unlikely that I'll be able to attend the ARIA call
> next week due to a standing conflict. In lieu of my attendance, I would
> like to point out a few things the DPUB and WAI groups should consider.
>
> 1. Longdesc received formal objections from Apple and Mozilla, the
> developers of the most accessible browsers on most major platforms, and
> neither vendor took the decision to object lightly. Regardless of TBL's
> final decision to release longdesc, the points made in Ted O'Connor's
> #longobjection™ are still relevant to both @longdesc and @aria-describedat.
>
>   Formal Objection to advancing the HTML Image Description document
>
> *https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.w3.org_Archives_Public_public-2Dhtml-2Dadmin_2014Aug_0028.html&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=cwixN1ZuIg5muwx0BlPtPZaNof-Ref9WQEGcGquu6Cc&e=>
>
>
> 2. In additional to the technical objections, the @longdesc and
> @aria-describedat attributes rely on a "separate but equal" design
> philosophy that we in the WebKit and Apple Accessibility Engineering teams
> consider to be Harmful for Accessibility. The specific points have been
> made ad infinitum, so I won't mention them again in this thread.
>
> 3. I personally believe all of your points and examples below are
> sufficiently addressed by one or more of the following approaches.
>
> - Figure with details element: *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_details_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=jwKp3bbiHsRzTLOleVZDXZD1xB6VrTEymbx72Ta-q8g&e=>
> - Accessible vector graphics in SVG:
> *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_svg_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=XY2ysgUXsSNWfY41FBwl4BRHWL4AYbSZuC8LMSQHaWk&e=>
> - Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
>  - Standard linking (<a href>)
>
> I hope you'll come to the conclusion that @aria-describedat is unnecessary
> (even harmful), but can agree to disagree if we are at an impasse.
>
> Cheers,
> James Craig
>
>
> PS. No response is necessary. Good luck with your work and the conference
> call next week.
>
>    On Jul 13, 2015, at 7:14 AM, George Kerscher <*kerscher@montana.com*
>    <kerscher@montana.com>> wrote:
>
>    Dear Rich and PF WG
>
>    Copying the DPub working group.
>
>    Below is the reply from the DPub working group you requested. We also
>    have three attached images for illustration.
>
>    We look forward to a time in August where we could gather on a call.
>
>    Best
>    George on behalf of the DPub Accessibility WG.
>
>    Begin message:
>
>    The Digital Publishing Interest Group asserts that the describedat
>    ARIA property  genuine utility to the publishing industry. The myriad
>    advantages of the attribute to the industry include:
>
>    1. Showing the user an extended enhancement without losing current
>    context.
>
>
> Both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide this
> functionality.
>
>  - Figure with details element: *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_details_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=jwKp3bbiHsRzTLOleVZDXZD1xB6VrTEymbx72Ta-q8g&e=>
> - Accessible vector graphics in SVG:
> *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_svg_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=XY2ysgUXsSNWfY41FBwl4BRHWL4AYbSZuC8LMSQHaWk&e=>
> - Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
>
>    ·         Not offered by linking in HTML in a standard way.
>    ·         Context is necessary for accessibility. This is especially
>    important for anybody using a screen reader, or for any user with cognitive
>    impairments. However, since both magnification use and mouse-less
>    keyboard-less browsing can increase the difficulty of navigating, providing
>    easy links to context can be very important.
>    ·         Publishing use case: An article in Example Magazine contains
>    multiple complex infographics that need to be described with
>    watermarks/breadcrumbs guaranteeing the reader will always return to the
>    current context.
>
>    2. Offering 3D printer models as enhanced alternatives to
>    viewing/printing for complex objects, such as a rotating visualization or a
>    relief map.
>
>
> Both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide this
> functionality.
>
> - Figure with details element: *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_details_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=jwKp3bbiHsRzTLOleVZDXZD1xB6VrTEymbx72Ta-q8g&e=>
> - Accessible vector graphics in SVG:
> *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_svg_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=XY2ysgUXsSNWfY41FBwl4BRHWL4AYbSZuC8LMSQHaWk&e=>
> - Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
>
>    ·         Not offered by describedby, alt, longdesc. linking in HTML
>    can't wrap complex dynamic objects, or objects which are already links.
>    ·         3D printing models of 3D visualizations will be a game
>    changer for blind/VI users of digital publications.
>    ·         Publishing use case: An art history textbook with 3D
>    printing instructions for Bernini’s David
>
>    3. Providing structured markup in an extended enhancement.
>
>
> Both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide this
> functionality.
>
> - Figure with details element: *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_details_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=jwKp3bbiHsRzTLOleVZDXZD1xB6VrTEymbx72Ta-q8g&e=>
> - Accessible vector graphics in SVG:
> *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_svg_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=XY2ysgUXsSNWfY41FBwl4BRHWL4AYbSZuC8LMSQHaWk&e=>
> - Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
>
>    ·         Not offered by describedby or alt.
>    ·         Structured markup is vital for accessibility. A screen
>    reader user who does not have access to structure cannot navigate to the
>    items in the list, cannot navigate via heading, and cannot have a screen
>    reader voice appropriately change language according to language tag
>    markup. Without structured markup a screen reader user cannot easily skim
>    or skip around the sections of a lengthy extension.
>    ·         Publishing use case: a linguistics textbook with complex
>    data visualizations needing rich description, including bulleted lists and
>    marked up multi-language sections. (See attached images for examples.)
>
>    4. Providing an extended enhancement to any element, even one thatis
>    already a link
>
>
> I'm not certain why you'd need a long desc for a link, but both <details>
> and <svg> can be used generally. They do not need to be associated with
> images.
>
>    ·         Not offered in all cases with alt, longdesc, linking in HTML.
>    ·         Extended enhancements need to be available for all page
>    items for accessibility. Many images or complex visualizations on the web
>    are already links as part of site design. Those need to be available to
>    blind/VI users just as much as unlinked images.
>    ·         Publishing use case: a historical map in a political science
>    reference manual, with Baltic States clearly marked on the historical image
>    links to a higher-definition map.
>
>    5. Providing an extended enhancement to any element, including a
>    dynamic one.
>
>
> Both the <details> element and vector-based <svg> alternative provide this
> functionality.
>
> - Figure with details element: *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_details_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=jwKp3bbiHsRzTLOleVZDXZD1xB6VrTEymbx72Ta-q8g&e=>
> - Accessible vector graphics in SVG:
> *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_svg_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=XY2ysgUXsSNWfY41FBwl4BRHWL4AYbSZuC8LMSQHaWk&e=>
>
>
>    ·         Not offered in all cases with alt, longdesc, linking in HTML.
>    ·         Extended enhancements need to be available for all items for
>    accessibility. Many images or complex visualizations on the web are rich
>    dynamic applications which cannot be made into links. Those need to be
>    available to blind/VI users just as much as simple images.
>    ·         Publishing use case: a required reading quiz at a chapter
>    end with a manipulatable, dynamic timelapse overlay.
>
>    6. Offering a large number of very lengthy enhancements in a single
>    page without bloating the size and complexity of the source page
>
>
> Standard linking and server-side content negotiation provide this
> functionality.
>
> That said, I am skeptical that your long descriptions would result in
> significantly measurable size increase for a web page.
>
> "Complexity" is a more subjective term so you could have a valid point
> depending on the specific image examples and development stack, but please
> consider this. The goal of simplifying authoring complexity should never
> yield a result that provides a substandard experience to the end user.
>
>    ·         Not offered by describedby, alt.
>    ·         There are myriad reasons why this is an accessibility use
>    case. First of all, accessibility has to become something publishers are
>    willing to add to their digital publications. If adding many extended
>    enhancements bloats the page such that it has a slow load time for the
>    users who will not access the extended enhancements, publishers are less
>    likely to add the enriched material. Moreover, slow load time can increase
>    reading difficulties for users with cognitive  impairments, as well as for
>    users with visual impairments, who are not necessarily informed of what is
>    happening during page load.
>    ·         Publishing use case: a picture book displaying a complex
>    four-part story, in which details from one story interact with details from
>    another.
>    ·         Publishing use case: a biology textbook chapter with a very
>    large number of cell images, each of which needs to be described with
>    description of the cell components
>
>    7. Providing access to extended enhancements in ways that don't
>    conflict with visual design.
>    ·         Not offered by linking in HTML.
>
>
> I reject this hypothesis. Links can be styled to disappear completely
> and/or display only when focused. As such, they provide all the
> functionality of longdesc and describedat, but perform better in more
> browsers and with more assistive technology.
>
> In addition, both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide
> this functionality and can be styled such that the design is not impacted.
>
> - Figure with details element: *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_details_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=jwKp3bbiHsRzTLOleVZDXZD1xB6VrTEymbx72Ta-q8g&e=>
> - Accessible vector graphics in SVG:
> *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_svg_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=XY2ysgUXsSNWfY41FBwl4BRHWL4AYbSZuC8LMSQHaWk&e=>
> - Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
>
>    ·         Although visual designers and layout designers need to
>    follow accessibility standards, ultimately visual design is often decided
>    in such a way that negotiation is impossible, sometimes contractually and
>    sometimes aesthetically. Putting a hyperlink after the item with the anchor
>    text "enhanced explanation of table 1.1" relies on the ability to modify
>    layout and visual representation. Exposing the enhancements via user agent
>    functionality or adaptive technology doesn't have an influence on the
>    visual design.
>    ·         Publishing use case: a publisher receives the contract for
>    creating an ebook of the original draft of Samuel Beckett's Waiting for
>    Godot. The terms of Samuel Beckett's will specify that no words be visible
>    on the page which were not written by Beckett himself, and the visual
>    layout be as close to his original draft as is possible.
>
>    8. Reusable, updateable and programmatically referenceable extended
>    enhancements.
>
>
> Both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide this
> functionality.
>
> - Figure with details element: *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_details_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=jwKp3bbiHsRzTLOleVZDXZD1xB6VrTEymbx72Ta-q8g&e=>
> - Accessible vector graphics in SVG:
> *http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/*
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cookiecrook.com_longdesc_svg_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=XY2ysgUXsSNWfY41FBwl4BRHWL4AYbSZuC8LMSQHaWk&e=>
> - Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
>
>    ·         Not offered by describedby, alt
>    ·         Publishers are most likely to rapidly implement
>    accessibility practices that have a sustainable workflow.
>    ·         Publishing use case: an online test manufacturer uses the
>    same complex table in a whole series of online tests;  in the three
>    different e-books they publish about practicing for the tests; and in the
>    answer key provided to test scorers. They write a single extended
>    enhancement and store it in a database along with the ID of the table. When
>    the test is released, the describedat attribute is added referencing a link
>    to the extended enhancement, which is made available online. After the
>    tests have been released and pushed to test centers, the test manufacturer
>    discovers an error in the complex table description. They update a single
>    description.
>    Sample Markup for  a subset of these use cases included at end.
>    We acknowledge that concern has been raised over the inability to
>    access online resources in an offline source document. However, we believe
>    that concern is being adequately addressed by ongoing efforts in the
>    Digital Publishing space to collapse the currently-sharp distinction
>    between online and offline resources. EPUB+WEB <
>    *https://w3c.github.io/epubweb/*
>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__w3c.github.io_epubweb_&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=QrYHFFG99WeegsXHQXhhyu049kewoh9sIZtQMPswYVg&e=>>
>    is the primary umbrella project collecting all the avenues of research in
>    this space.
>    Annotations may address some of these use case, but it is not yet a
>    Recommendation, and accessibility needs to be further addressed in the
>    Draft.
>    The DPUB IG has open and active channels of communication with the
>    BISG accessibility team, and is confident that the publishing industry is
>    passionate about accessibility at this moment, and is very willing to
>    attempt to implement standards formalized by the W3C and implemented in
>    user agents. The use cases above are problems the publishing industry must
>    solve in the near future, and it is looking to the W3C for help formulating
>    solutions. In the last several months, there has been a whirlwind of
>    activity around accessibility in the publishing community. Every industry
>    organization (more than 30) has a task force dedicated to accessibility, to
>    the point that several of us are working to consolidate efforts. This query
>    comes at a time of heightened awareness in the publishing world, as several
>    key actors are poised to act. Publishers are embracing the full suite of
>    accessibility best practices, and describedat is a powerful tool. We will
>    evangelize this as the best option, and they have shown they are poised to
>    listen.
>    Sample Markup:
>    Example for Use Case 2.
>    <img src="*http://www.worldmapsonline.com/images/HS432.jpg*
>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.worldmapsonline.com_images_HS432.jpg&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=pUiaepibKq2Dyi7JLqN977eRhGM92vb2FPelwom1BuQ&e=>"
>    alt="Relief map of the United States"
>    aria-describedat="/CAD_files/usmap.cad">
>    Example for Use Case 5.
>    On a Google maps time lapse view used in a dynamic textbook, eg:
>    *https://www.google.com/maps/@42.362753,-71.089829,3a,75y,213h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s46xSQNv8yySyc1t9rJBaig!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en*
>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.google.com_maps_-4042.362753-2C-2D71.089829-2C3a-2C75y-2C213h-2C90t_data-3D-213m7-211e1-213m5-211s46xSQNv8yySyc1t9rJBaig-212e0-215s20121001T000000-217i13312-218i6656-216m1-211e1-3Fhl-3Den&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=Wv3Ayq2sn5HCcpkb-B_n-AzlOO2OCEBipu6HlyqZ8Js&e=>
>    <div jstcache="517" class="widget-timemachine-dropdown-container"
>    aria-describedat="TimeMachineTextualEnhancement.html"> ... </div>
>    Example for Use Case 6. Also works as an example for Use Case 3.
>    File 1: black-and-white.html
>    <img src="*http://students.english.ilstu.edu/jmklass/images/black2.jpg*
>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__students.english.ilstu.edu_jmklass_images_black2.jpg&d=AwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=REZD8fc2AwufInstfW3L5jSLVS8bjZtAodDOhat7yAI&m=6iOvp9AgV3aU_-siACSAsa9TL3jkyTIiHte_Z7qIdjc&s=Ab_FyC0BNugG4a-i_9P8ASoZMHUjQXEWn18UO-BuSRI&e=>
>    "
>    alt="David Macauley's Black and White, pages 5-6"
>    aria-describedat="/foo/bw56.html">
>    File 2: bw56.html
>    <h1>David Macauley's Black and White, pages 5-6</h1>
>    <!-- TOC here -->
>    <h2>Story 1: Seeing Things</h2>
>    <h3>Art Style</h3>
>    ...
>    <h3>Text</h3>
>    ...
>    <h3>Art Style</h3>
>    ...
>    <h3>Image description</h3>
>    ...
>    <!-- repeat for stories 2-4 -->
>    <h2>Inter-story Interaction</h2>
>    <!-- Describe the interaction between stories 2 and 4 as shown in the
>    image -->
>
>
>
>    From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [*mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com*
>    <schwer@us.ibm.com>]
>    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 6:54 AM
>    To: George Kerscher; *janina@rednote.net* <janina@rednote.net>
>    Cc: PF; SVG WG; *public-dpub-aria@w3.org* <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>;
>    *cooper@w3.org* <cooper@w3.org>; *jbrewer@w3.org* <jbrewer@w3.org>;
>    Markus Gylling
>    Subject: aria-describedat
>
>    George, Janina,
>
>    As you know, we put aria-describedat in the ARIA 1.1 spec., however
>    the caviat for it staying was that we see adequate support from a number of
>    key publishers that they would commit to using it if we actually kept it in
>    the specification. This was months ago. Janina had promised me that after I
>    came back from vacation that we would see something either way from
>    publishers. I have been back two weeks now and there has been no movement.
>
>    At this point I am trying to lock down the ARIA 1.1 specification so
>    that we can work on ARIA 2.0 which will address critical features such as
>    extensibility and greater support for web applications. Also, the group has
>    additional modules in development for digital publishing and graphics that
>    are coming in parallel that are taxing people's time.
>
>    So, allowing for possible mis-communications between PF and the
>    publishers I am going to give to mid-August to see a strong response from
>    publishers. If we do not see it I am going to propose that aria-describedat
>    be removed from the ARIA 1.1 specification.
>
>    Rich
>
>
>
>    Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
>
>
>
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>


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Received on Tuesday, 11 August 2015 17:37:16 UTC

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