Re: proposal: subline element

>
> This sounds rather clumsy - I would expect assistive software to use
> pauses, stress, and tone to express headings,  but even if they announce
> "heading level one" (and presumably then "end of heading level one" at some
> point?), I don't see what it could help to insert the word "subline" into
> the speech. Just saying "Space is not the only void", followed by a pause,
> would be more natural. What would the added value of the word "subline" be?
> (And I have no idea of what "subline" might be in other languages. A cannot
> find a word for the proposed meaning "a single or multiple subheadings,
> subtitles, taglines or bylines" in any language that I know.


As I keep stressing the subline proposal is just a sketch of an idea open
to major changes and scrapping altogether.

'subline' is just a token for the concept its name could and probably will
change if it progresses. and whatever its called it does not mean that this
would be voiced. It may be its role value but its role description (text
announced to users) may be something else altogether.

In many cases such as in the case of headings or landmarks the default AT
behaviour to announce the presence "heading level x" or "banner landmark"
whether that is optimal or not is a different question.

Here http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/landmarks.html are some (old)
test results for landmarks, what AT announce is included in the data table.




--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>


On 31 May 2013 11:43, Jukka K. Korpela <jukka.k.korpela@kolumbus.fi> wrote:

> 2013-05-31 13:18, Heydon Pickering wrote:
>
>> A subheading is not a component of a heading but a complement to it.
>>
>
> The issue is getting rather scholastic, and this is typical of discussions
> around "semantic" elements. Far from conveying any commonly understood
> *meaning*, they often fail to express even *structural* relationships in a
> manner that people could agree, still less have an immediate understanding
> of. So it is easy to see many problems that these elements create, like
> endless "semantic" debates, but very difficult to see actual problems that
> they would solve.
>
> I do not count "what markup should I use for a subline" (i.e. for
> something that I call a subline) as an actual problem. There are several
> feasible alternatives in HTML as currently defined. The choice between them
> is largely up to personal viewpoint and style - and does not matter much,
> as long as you follow your own approach systematically (to ease styling and
> scripting).
>
>
>  Proposal For In-house Training Services
>> Transformational Communication Skills
>>
>
> This looks very much like one heading to me, consisting of two phrases,
> probably to be rendered on separate lines, but still structurally a single
> heading for something.
>
>
>
>> <h1>Proposal For In-house Training Services</h1>
>> <subline>Transformational Communication Skills</subline>
>>
>
> It might be argued that the first phrase, being more abstract and
> classifying rather than descriptive, is the "subline" part (and should
> perhaps appear in smaller font). In any case, wouldn't you want search
> engines to give greater relative weight to the second, more content-rich
> phrase?
>
> For all the potential uses of h1 markup in software that I can imagine,
> this should be one heading. Styling it is a different issue, and can be
> handled without any additions to HTML.
>
> When an author thinks that a "subline" isn't really part of the same
> heading as the phrase that it associates with, he can use div or p markup
> for it. I don't see here any problem that <subline> would solve. What would
> user agents be expected to *do* with it? The only idea about this seems to
> be the following, from the draft mentioned in the original post (
> http://rawgithub.com/w3c/**subline/master/index.html<http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html>):
>
> "Assistive technology may convey the semantic of the subline element. Thus
> for an assistive technology user the first example above could be announced
> as:
>
> "/heading level 1/ The reality dysfunction /subline/ Space is not the only
> void""
>
> This sounds rather clumsy - I would expect assistive software to use
> pauses, stress, and tone to express headings,  but even if they announce
> "heading level one" (and presumably then "end of heading level one" at some
> point?), I don't see what it could help to insert the word "subline" into
> the speech. Just saying "Space is not the only void", followed by a pause,
> would be more natural. What would the added value of the word "subline" be?
> (And I have no idea of what "subline" might be in other languages. A cannot
> find a word for the proposed meaning "a single or multiple subheadings,
> subtitles, taglines or bylines" in any language that I know.
>
> --
> Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~**jkorpela/ <http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/>
>
>
>