- From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
- Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 01:27:16 +0100
- To: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
- Cc: "Michael[tm] Smith" <mike@w3.org>, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
The current text includes "dedicated pages". Thus: Perhaps the text could simply make it even *clearer* that such a figure, when moved away to e.g. a dedicated page, can *still* be kept inside the <figure> element … (Which implies that it can be the sole content of a page.) I.e. just give readers some reading help. Leif H Silli Silvia Pfeiffer, Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:10:36 +1100: > It's people like that who are self-restricting their use of elements and > advising others to do it the same way that set precedents and then we end > up with a different reality from the spec (de-facto standards). I therefore > agree that we should put some clarifying language into the spec. > > Maybe we just need to split up that paragraph and stat the "moving away" > possibility as a second sentence (after "but that...") as something that is > "also possible". > > Silvia. > > On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 7:21 AM, Michael[tm] Smith <mike@w3.org> wrote: > >> Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, 2013-01-24 09:44 +0000: >> >>> I think the current definition [4] of the figure element leads to >>> developers thinking that they cannot use it to caption an image or images >>> that are ket parts of the content: >>> >>> "The element can thus be used to annotate illustrations, diagrams, >> photos, >>> code listings, etc, that are referred to from the main content of the >>> document, but that could, without affecting the flow of the document, be >>> moved away from that primary content, e.g. to the side of the page, to >>> dedicated pages, or to an appendix." >> >> I agree that statement seems to be confusing people, and so maybe some >> language should be added around there to make it more clear that the figure >> element is not necessarily restricted to being used only for the purpose >> described there. >> >> But I'm not sure it's the fault of the spec that some people are >> misunderstanding it. For one thing, that sentence above is clearly not >> stating any normative requirement. Or at least I think, to anybody who's >> taken time to get familiar with the editorial style the spec consistently >> uses, it would be clear that sentence states no normative requirements. >> >> For context about what I mean, it's worth also quoting what the spec says >> just before that statement you quote above. What it says is: >> >> The figure element represents some flow content, optionally with a >> caption, that is self-contained and is typically referenced as a single >> unit from the main flow of the document. >> >> As far as I can see, that sentence is the only statement in the spec that >> normatively defines the meaning of the figure element. And the parts of >> that sentence that are qualified with "optionally" and "typically" are not >> stating absolute requirements, so the only statement that's actually fully >> normative is "The figure element represents some flow content that is >> self-contained." >> >> The spec very consistently uses a particular style to clearly distinguish >> between parts that are normative and parts that are just informative or >> illustrative. For a lot of elements, the only normative part is a sentence >> that uses "The foo element represents" pattern. And the part of the spec >> that gives those statements normative weight as authoring-conformance >> requirements is here: >> >> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#elements >> >> Elements, attributes, and attribute values in HTML are defined (by this >> specification) to have certain meanings (semantics). For example, the ol >> element represents an ordered list, and the lang attribute represents the >> language of the content. >> >> Authors must not use elements, attributes, or attribute values for >> purposes other than their appropriate intended semantic purpose, as doing >> so prevents software from correctly processing the page. >> >> If elements have other normative authoring-conformance requirements, the >> spec states them very clearly by using RFC 2119 "must", "must not", etc., >> language. For example, for the "address" element, the spec states these >> additional normative authoring constraints: >> >> The address element must not be used to represent arbitrary addresses >> (e.g. postal addresses), unless those addresses are in fact the relevant >> contact information. >> >> The address element must not contain information other than contact >> information. >> >> So if the spec were going to actually normatively state what purposes a >> figure element is restricted to, it would state it with some "must" or >> "must not" language, like this: >> >> The figure element must not be used to contain the main content of a >> document or the main content of a section of a document. >> >> The figure element must only be used to annotate illustrations, diagrams, >> photos, code listings, etc, that are referred to from the main content of >> the document, but that could, without affecting the flow of the document, >> be moved away from that primary content, e.g. to the side of the page, to >> dedicated pages, or to an appendix. >> >> But it doesn't say that. Instead, it just says the figure element "can be" >> used in a particular way. That implies that it's not necessarily restricted >> to the particular use it describes, and there's a possibility it can be >> used for other purposes. >> >> In other words, that statement is simply illustrative. It's just additional >> guidance that's there to help people understand what the element is by >> describing a common case where it can be used. >> >>> For example, in this current discussion >>> http://html5doctor.com/html5-simplequiz-7-pinterest/ >>> >>> developers are making statements such as [1]: >>> >>> "I don’t think figure is appropriate, because it’s for things that can be >>> taken out of flow and moved to an appendix, and the pins on the page are >>> the whole point of the flow" >> >> So yeah the person quoted is making a mistaken inference about what the >> spec actually says. The spec doesn't say that it's *only* for things that >> can be taken out of flow and moved to an appendix. >> >>> "<figure>s are intended to contain accessory content, not the main >>> substance of the section in question." >> >> And here I think the person quoted is making another mistaken inference >> that's going even farther away from what the spec actually says. The spec >> doesn't use the word "accessory" nor anything like it here, nor does it say >> that figure must not be used to mark up the main substance of anything. >> >>> "The spec says they can be moved away from the main flow of the document >>> without affecting the document’s meaning. I therefore don’t think it’s >>> appropriate to use them for the main image and description here." [2] >> >> So the spec doesn't say at all what the person quoted there is claiming. >> That is, it doesn't say that a figure is something that absolutely can >> always be moved away. It says the figure element "can be" used for things >> that could be moved away without affecting the document's "flow" (not >> "meaning", by the way, as misquoted above). It does not say that the figure >> element must only be used for those things, but not for anything else. >> >> I think in general some people do way too much hair-splitting about how a >> particular element should or should not be used -- I mean in cases like >> this, where the authoring restriction they're asserting is something that's >> not even possible to check with a validator and that has no relation to how >> the content is handled by a Web browser. >> >> But anyway, clearly for the case of figure we have some people that are >> reading more restrictions into its use than what the spec actually says. So >> I agree it would be worthwhile to come up with some additions or >> refinements to the language there to avoid having people unnecessarily >> restrict their use of the figure element in particular ways that there's no >> good reason they need to be restricting it to. >> >> --Mike >> >> -- >> Michael[tm] Smith http://people.w3.org/mike >> >>
Received on Friday, 25 January 2013 00:27:47 UTC