Re: device independent title attribute support in browsers and follow up question

On May 7, 2011, at 11:44 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:

> Hi Maciej,
> 
> thanks for the reply,
> 
> So just to be clear, there are no concrete plans for webkit to provide access to title attribute content for keyboard users?

Like I said before: "Apple does not generally give specific details regarding future product plans." I can't tell you anything about concrete feature plans at this time. I am specifically *not* saying that there are no plans, I'm just not free to comment on specific plans. Sorry if this is not as helpful as it could be, it's just company policy.

> note: I am referring to webkit cross platform.

I don't know anything about the plans of other vendors of WebKit-based browsers, and I don't know offhand whether any functionality to be added here would be in cross-platform or platform-specific parts of the code. There are many Google representatives on this list, including several who work on Chrome, and they may be in a position to tell you whether Google is interested in such functionality.

Regards,
Maciej

> 
> regards
> Stevef
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7 May 2011 01:45, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
> 
> On May 5, 2011, at 2:26 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
> 
>> Hi all, 
>> 
>> I originally requested feedback on April 19th, since the 2 vendors have indicated that they have no plans to implement device independent access to the title attribute.
>> 
>> Can it be taken that the lack of response from Apple and Opera that they also have no plans?
> 
> Apple does not generally give specific details regarding future product plans. I can tell you that in general we are interested in accessibility and strive to improve it over time.
> 
> I can also tell you that, as far as current products go, Safari+VoiceOver on Mac OS X makes the title attribute very broadly accessible, including to blind or visually impaired users, and to users who have difficulties with using a pointing device. We will give consideration to how the experience can be improved when VoiceOver is not in use.
> 
>> 
>> FYI 
>> I published some data on title attribute usage on a few web pages, http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/title-usage.html
>> 
>> Of the pages checked approximatley 90% of title attribute content was a duplicate or similar to the text content of the element the title attribute was associated with.
>> 
>> A further question:
>> 
>> Do any vendors have plans to follow webkit's lead and display the title attribute content in place of an image when the image is not rendered?
> 
> I'm not sure if this is intentional behavior or a bug. It definitely is intentional that we expose title to assistive technologies, and that consequently VoiceOver will use it when present for images that lack an alt attribute. It is also intentional that alt does not create a tooltip, which I believe is the primary intent of the HTML5 requirement that title and alt should not be displayed in the same way. Historically, some older browsers displayed alt text as a tooltip. This led to authors choosing alt text which was advisory in nature and suitable for use in a tooltip, rather than alt text which could act as a textual equivalent for the image. By this standard, it's not necessarily wrong to show the title text on a missing image when alt is missing, though it does seem the letter of the spec would forbid this behavior.
> 
> I think the spec requirement should be changed to say something like "User agents must not present the contents of the alt attribute as if they were advisory information, e.g. as a tooltip." The requirement as stated seems wrong, because the spec does allow using title as a effectively a textual replacement when alt is not available.
> 
>> 
>> Note: if so the HTML5 spec will require updating as it currently forbids alt and title to be displayed in the same way :
>> 
>> "The alt attribute does not represent advisory information. User agents must not present the contents of the alt attribute in the same way as content of the title attribute."  
>> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element
>> 
>> Details of  support in 2010 for title and alt display on images is available:
>> 
>> alt and title content display in popular browsers http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2010/01/alt-and-title-content-display-in-popular-browsers/
>> results: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/alt-tests/alt-examples.html
>> screenshots: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/alt-tests/screenshots.html
>> 
>> regards
>> Stevef
>> 
>> 
>> On 19 April 2011 09:37, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> A recent decision by the HTML working group makes it conforming to
>> provide caption content for images whilst omitting the alt attribute.
>> This is problematic because while alt is designed to be presented to
>> users when the image cannot be viewed, and it is implemented as such.
>> The title attribute is for advisory information that should be
>> available to all users at any time. This is not the case and has never
>> been the case in any graphical browser.
>> 
>> Can any of the representatives from browser vendors provide
>> information as to when the title attribute will be implemented so:
>> 
>> * keyboard only users are aware that a title attribute is present on an element?
>> * keyboard only users are able to access the title attribute content
>> on an element using the keyboard?
>> * The display of the title attribute content is configurable so that
>> users of screen magnifiers are able view title attribute content
>> within the viewport?
>> * access to title attribute content will be available on mobile and
>> touch browsers?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> with regards
>> 
>> Steve Faulkner
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> with regards
>> 
>> Steve Faulkner
>> Technical Director - TPG
>> 
>> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> with regards
> 
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
> 
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html 
>