- From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 08:52:00 -0500
- To: Frank Olivier <Frank.Olivier@microsoft.com>
- Cc: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>, Charles Pritchard <chuck@jumis.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, "david.bolter@gmail.com" <david.bolter@gmail.com>, "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>, "Mike@w3.org" <Mike@w3.org>, "public-canvas-api@w3.org" <public-canvas-api@w3.org>, "public-html@w3.org" <public-html@w3.org>, "public-html-a11y@w3.org" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, public-html-request@w3.org
- Message-ID: <OFABB22542.B62A86ED-ON862578B9.00499354-862578B9.004C2BCC@us.ibm.com>
Frank, We met in Redmond and we agreed that we needed the ability to do hit testing and how to do it so that we could bind the drawing object paths to the accessibility API. We do NOT need to implement full retained mode graphics to do this. If we cannot make canvas accessible, which we can't without the ability to supply bounding object information then canvas MUST be removed from HTML 5. We cannot continue to put half-baked accessible solutions into the standard or browsers. The browser manufactures put canvas into the spec. and added support for it but right now it is like an inaccessible bolt on to a specification that the entire world is going to be using. SVG has a VERY long way to go for accessibility and in fact, the tremendous amount of gas wasted trying to make canvas and the rest of HTML accessible on things like longdesc, and alt text, wording on how ARIA is integrated have delayed work on accessibility resources by over 2 years wrt. SVG. Starting on SVG now is like having a kid who does not want to finish mowing the lawn because they have something more interesting to work on. The reality is canvas is we have a half pregnant solution with canvas and we need to finish it. Right now developers are producing inaccessible canvas solutions because the browser manufactures slammed an incomplete solution into the HTML standard that everyone on the planet uses today. We are addressing accessibility late in the design cycle and, frankly, I personally have been herding cats on browser manufactures to clean up the mess they created. If browser manufacturers do not want canvas, and that includes Microsoft, then say so now so that we don't deliver an inaccessible solution to the world and gut it from the spec. I will go to the W3C CEO and the chairs within the next week and demand that the thing be removed. We are setting HTML up to be another JavaScript accessibility problem. If HTML is not accessible it is not going to be accepted. As for SVG, we need to finish HTML accessibility and get ARIA through CR before we can even think of tackling the accessibility of something as big as SVG. That is why SVG accessibility was moved to ARIA 2.0. To properly fix SVG accessibility and standardize it we are looking at a 3 year standards effort. Let's get canvas done first with the minimal amount of work. The only way to do that is to add hit testing on bounding region draw path assignments, skip full retained mode graphics, and fix some of the stragglers around Maciej's request on focus ring and adding text baseline support. Frankly, the time spent waffling on getting this stuff done than it would take to fix the thing. So, Frank it appears canvas accessibility is in the Microsoft's hands now. Do we cut it from HTML or do we fix it? If, we leave it in browsers unfixed, I will point to the browser manufacturers for leaving it that way when asked by government officials why it is not accessible. Rich Rich Schwerdtfeger CTO Accessibility Software Group From: Frank Olivier <Frank.Olivier@microsoft.com> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com> Cc: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>, Charles Pritchard <chuck@jumis.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, "david.bolter@gmail.com" <david.bolter@gmail.com>, "Mike@w3.org" <Mike@w3.org>, "public-canvas-api@w3.org" <public-canvas-api@w3.org>, "public-html@w3.org" <public-html@w3.org>, "public-html-a11y@w3.org" <public-html-a11y@w3.org> Date: 06/23/2011 06:31 PM Subject: RE: hit testing and retained graphics Sent by: public-html-request@w3.org Microsoft considers SVG to be the correct way to do retained mode graphics. We have no plans to add retained capabilities to the immediate mode canvas API. If SVG doesn’t address the problem then effort would be better expended on fixing that problem. Thanks Frank From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com] Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 2:29 PM To: Tab Atkins Jr. Cc: Cameron McCormack; Charles Pritchard; Cynthia Shelly; david.bolter@gmail.com; Frank Olivier; Mike@w3.org; public-canvas-api@w3.org; public-html@w3.org; public-html-a11y@w3.org Subject: Re: hit testing and retained graphics Hi Tab, We are trying to make canvas accessible and we are trying to provide hit testing support in canvas vs. throwing out canvas for SVG. SVG has a VERY long way before it is accessible and canvas developers, who have canvas implementations, don't want to throw all their work away to get hit testing by using SVG. I have a very large IBM application in development and SVG given the state of SVG accessibility and how the application is constructed it is not a good fit. I also have a commitment to ensure HTML 5 is fully accessible, as part of the HTML accessibility task force effort, and we need to make magnifiers aware of drawing object location and dimensions in canvas. Also, there is a need to have hit testing support in canvas and I am trying to marry an accessibility feature with a mainstream feature developers need. I had suggested full retained mode graphics by creating drawing objects that would inherit the 2d Context API of canvas, however the discussion on the list was indicated that was more than people wanted. So a subset of retained mode graphics using draw paths to form the bounds of objects is where the discussion is currently. Things like font, brush, or other retained mode features would be left to the canvas context as is. Rich Rich Schwerdtfeger CTO Accessibility Software Group "Tab Atkins Jr." ---06/23/2011 03:30:32 PM---On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote: From: "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS Cc: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>, Charles Pritchard <chuck@jumis.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, david.bolter@gmail.com, Frank Olivier <Frank.Olivier@microsoft.com>, Mike@w3.org, public-canvas-api@w3.org, public-html@w3.org, public-html-a11y@w3.org Date: 06/23/2011 03:30 PM Subject: Re: hit testing and retained graphics ________________________________________ On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote: >> So normally, I imagine, hit testing would be done either by using >> isPointInPath() or by custom code looking at a mouse event’s x/y values. >> I think this proposal doesn’t work with isPointInPath(), though, is that >> right? >> > I think it would but we would need to incorporate Z order and a notion of > the last drawn element to compute which element is on top. The user agent > would need to manage this. You are attempting to recreate a retained-mode API in an immediate-mode API. Why is "use SVG" not sufficient for this? ~TJ
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Received on Friday, 24 June 2011 13:53:09 UTC