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Re: Bug 7034

From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:59:24 -0400
Message-ID: <4BA777BC.2010900@intertwingly.net>
To: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
CC: HTMLwg WG <public-html@w3.org>
On 03/22/2010 06:55 AM, Henri Sivonen wrote:
> On Mar 20, 2010, at 14:14, Sam Ruby wrote:
>> One simple example to show how this relates to issue-41.  Suppose a
>> person authors a page for iPhone users.  This page to be served in
>> PHP.  This person uses Emacs.  During the course of development, at
>> one point some portion of the page is commented out.  That portion
>> happens to contain to contain consecutive dashes.  Per the current
>> draft, this is a conformance error.  Per Validator.nu, the reason
>> given is this data can't be serialized as XML 1.0.
>
> I think you are mischaracterizing what Validator.nu says. It gives an
> error saying that consecutive hyphens aren't allowed. It doesn't give
> a reason why they aren't allowed. Then it gives a discretionary
> warning that says the document isn't representable as XML 1.0 due to
> consecutive hyphens in a comment.

So what is the rationale for this restriction?

>> As a user, my reaction would be along the lines of "thanks for
>> sharing".  At no point in any scenario that this user cares about
>> is an XML 1.0 serializer involved.
>
> I'm now confused about your position on polyglot documents. I thought
> you wanted more validator warnings on constructs that aren't
> permitted in both HTML5 and XHTML5. Did you want them only
> optionally?

Not producing a polyglot document certainly should not be an error.  An 
option would be a "nice to have", time permitting, should somebody be 
willing to work on it.  Eventually, I might be that somebody.  Or might not.

> As for the error, wouldn't the spec move away from--not closer
> to--what the Super Friends (and maybe at one point or another the
> TAG) have asked for if the consecutive hyphens weren't an error? (I'm
> not suggesting that you'd need to agree with the Super Friends or
> anyone else. I'm just pointing out that aligning the spec with your
> wishes more may end up aligning it with someone else's wishes less.)

Wishes are not a good way of determining what is or is not an error.

> I also note that in this general area, there lurks an actual interop
> issue with Gecko's old HTML parser:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214476

Thanks!

> When you talk about interop issues, do you mean actual interop issues
> with software deployed today (even if that software might fade away
> in the future) or interop issues in a future scenario where every
> piece of software conforms to the spec?

If there are valid reasons to ignore a particular item, then a MUST is 
not appropriate.

>> Now consider site #5 on the internet: live.com.  I'm also pretty
>> sure that this site was not authored using Emacs.  It, too, is
>> served as text/html.  It contains an attribute that validator.nu
>> asserts can't be serializable as XML 1.0.  The statement that
>> validator.nu makes is somewhat incomplete and arguably misleading.
>
> How so? You can't represent an attribute whose local name is
> "xmlns:web" and that doesn't have a namespace in XML 1.0 plus
> Namespaces.
>
> Not saying this because the source stream would be well-formed XML
> but with another document tree seems to me to be about scoring
> political points among people who like the appearance of using XML
> more than they care about the document being actually polyglot.
> However, making various presentational elements and attributes
> conforming would lose a lot of political points with another (but
> non-trivially overlapping) constituency.
>
> How should we decide which political points to go for?

Wishes are not a good way of determining what is or is not an error.

>> I'll also note that the xml:lang attribute that is also present in
>> this same page does not meet the criteria of producing a DOM when
>> parsed using an HTML parser that can also be produced using an XML
>> parser.
>
> True. However, for conforming documents, this doesn't alter the
> meaning of the document, because xml:lang in text/html is only
> allowed when accompanied by lang with the same value.

Meaning is in the eye of the beholder.  The DOM is different.

- Sam Ruby
Received on Monday, 22 March 2010 14:00:01 UTC

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