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Re: FPWD of Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML (rename BDI by SCE)

From: Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin <aharon@google.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:54:41 +0200
Message-ID: <6b45e1b51003170554g3411902ck9f5f642e038843c5@mail.gmail.com>
To: ntounsi@emi.ac.ma
Cc: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>, public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-core@w3.org, public-i18n-bidi@w3.org
First, a note. The name bdi was meant to stand for "bi-directional isolate"..
It was not meant to be short for "bidi". I can see how this can cause
confusion, so changing the name is probably a good idea.

Maciej Stachowiak wrotes:
> I would suggest an attribute name that consists of one
> or more words. I think a three-letter acronym for a feature
> that probably won't be used that often in markup will
> confuse people when they see it.

A longer name would, of course be more descriptive. However, I do expect
this attribute to be used an awful lot by webapps, and do not want to
inflate the size of HTML files needlessly. Furthermore, currently existing
HTML attributes are generally fairly short.

Najib Tounsi writes:
> I suggest going further, in order to permit the user to
> think in term of meaning of the content [a self-contained
> entity, e.g. a title or brand name] rather than in term of
> Bidi "strangeness". Roughly speaking  'sce' should be
> to 'bdi' what <em> is to <i>.

Here, I tend to disagree. Bidi strangeness is the only reason for this
attribute. To put it another way, what practical meaning would sce have if
the bidi problem did not exist? The <em> analogy does not hold: <em>, in
principle, could mean that the text is underlined or bolded or have a yellow
background. What, besides isolating the content *directionally, *could sce

Furthermore, to declare a piece of the dom to be something, one would indeed
use not an attribute, but an element, as in fact Najib suggests. However, I
want to be able to apply the "bidi isolate" functionality to any element -
e.g. <br> as in another part of the proposal.

Thus, I want this to stay an attribute, and an alternative name that come to
my mind is dirsep. Any opinions?


On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Najib Tounsi <ntounsi@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
> As mentioned in the last i18n teleconf, I suggest to rename the 'bdi' (Bidi
> Isolation) attribute by 'sce' (Self Containing Entity). Or something like..
> The aim of the new markup (the proposed 'bdi') is to permit the user to
> define what he/she thinks of as a title, a brand name, and what else, and
> then should be rendered  visually as it is, i.e. independently from what
> precede or follow it.
> I suggest going further, in order to permit the user to think in term of
> meaning of the content rather than in term of Bidi "strangeness".
> Roughly speaking  'sce' should be to 'bdi' what <em> is to <i>.
> Moreover, and for readability, 'sce' attribute without value seem to me
> more meaningful than 'bdi' itself.
> <span sce dir="ltr"> -3 review.</span>
> Opinion?
> Regards, Najib
> PS: I even wanted to suggest another element name, to reinforce the idea of
> bidi isolation.
> <sce dir="ltr"> -3 review.</sce>
> Richard Ishida wrote:
>>  HTML folks,
>>  Just to let you know the expectations of the i18n WG wrt this
>>  document[1] which was published yesterday.  We do not expect the HTML
>>  WG to review and comment on it just yet.
>>  The document is still in early draft, and was published to facilitate
>>  ongoing feedback from bidi experts and i18n folks. It also contains
>>  some explicitly identified open issues.
>>  The plan is to obtain feedback as soon as possible from bidi experts
>>  and internationalization folks, then issue a new draft that
>>  incorporates the results of those discussions.  Only at that point do
>>  we plan to put the proposals to the HTML community and seek their
>>  comments and commitment. Depending on the amount of discussion that
>>  takes place, we would hope to publish the second draft in about a
>>  month from now.
>>  Best regards, RI
>>  [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html-bidi-20100304/
>>  ============ Richard Ishida Internationalization Lead W3C (World Wide
>>  Web Consortium)
>>  http://www.w3.org/International/ http://rishida.net/
>>  --
> Najib TOUNSI (tounsi at w3.org)
> W3C Office in Morocco (http://www.w3c.org.ma/)
> Ecole Mohammadia d'Ingénieurs, BP. 765 Agdal-RABAT Morocco
> Phone : +212 (0) 537 68 71 50  Fax : +212 (0) 537 77 88 53
> Mobile: +212 (0) 661 22 00 30
Received on Wednesday, 17 March 2010 15:57:14 UTC

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