- From: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:33:28 +0100
- To: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>
- Cc: Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au>, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>, public-html@w3.org
- Message-ID: <AANLkTinAYxAe65KVLA107nysYkkfHT6Dxl9WBSbOJsf2@mail.gmail.com>
hi jonas, >Is there anything to substantiate this concern? I.e. has anyone ever >heard of this happening in practice? I have noted from our web site stats is regularly people arrive at our blog with querys like "role not valid", as I have written a few articles on the subject of html / aria validation. Which suggest people are checking with a validator and finding arrors due to use of role (most ;probably on html4/xhtml 1 docs) and validation does appear to be a concern for some: http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2008/speeding-adoption-of-wai-aria/ regards Stevef On 17 June 2010 11:15, Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc> wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 2:54 AM, Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au> > wrote: > > On 2010-06-16 23:28, Jonas Sicking wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger > >> <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> So, what you want to do is use accessibility as a vehicle to enforce > your > >>> vision of sticking to host language semantics. > >>> You want to tell someone who is trying to make their web page > accessible > >>> be > >>> an HTML villain - per your WhatWG post: > >>> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100616#l-228 > >>> [04:58]<othermaciej> it disallows the concept with a > >>> non-machine-checkable > >>> requirement, but does not make the syntax an error > >>> # [04:58]<othermaciej> however, it does make the syntax<a > role="button"> > >>> an error > >>> # [04:58]<Hixie> right, role="" is a godsend here > >>> # [04:58]<othermaciej> with a machine-checkable rule > >>> > >>> If you remove the ARIA role semantics it means that authors are free to > >>> produce inaccessible content when they use script and CSS. > >> > >> Note that no one has suggested removing the ARIA role semantics. > > > > My understanding of what Richard is saying is that by making it a > > conformance error, the result of reporting an error for <a role="button"> > > will be for authors to simply remove the role attribute, even if the link > > really is behaving like a button, rather than changing it to a real > button. > > Is there anything to substantiate this concern? I.e. has anyone ever > heard of this happening in practice? > > >>> I mean you don't suggest > >>> it is a failure if you add script and CSS so they will go right along > >>> doing > >>> it. This is how we got into the situation where we needed ARIA. We > failed > >>> by > >>> not giving > >>> the authors the vehicle to convey their intent > >> > >> That is a different situation then here though. We are providing the > >> vehicle to convey their intent. That vehicle is<button>. > > > > That sounds nice in theory, and in the past I have used <button> in place > of > > <a> for that reason, even though the button had to be styled to look like > a > > link to match the graphic designer's/client's request. > > > > This particular case was a Cancel button which was designed to look like > a > > link instead of a submit button. The reasons for these design and > > implementation decisions were > > > > 1. To make it sufficiently distinguishable from the "Next" button so that > > end users didn't accidentally click it instead of Next. > > 2. To still submit and notify the server of the registration > cancellation, > > if cancelled from step 2 onwards, and to work with the way in which the > back > > end was being implemented. > > 3. Because it was actually a link step 1 of the registration process (if > you > > cancelled before submitting step 1, there was no need to notify the > server) > > but it still needed to look consistent across each of the pages. > > 4. It had to function with JS disabled, and so a submit button was chosen > > over a link that invoked form.submit(). > > 5. Because I'm pedantic enough to take the time to do things right, > though I > > can attest to the level of complexity that this right way of doing things > > created, particularly in terms getting consistent form control styling > > across browsers. It most certainly would have been quicker and easier to > > just use a link. > > > > In practice, however, we find that most authors simply avoid this hassle > of > > styling buttons to look like links in favour of simply using a link with > > script to satisfy the behavioural implementation requirements. Even > though > > from theoretical point of view, doing so may be less than ideal, web > > developers have to make a trade off between semantic purity and matching > the > > client's requirements in a cost effective and timely manner. Spending > time > > replicating the look and feel of a link by styling a button often loses > out > > to simply using a link and getting the job done faster. > > Out of curiosity, how much CSS was required to do this? If an > implementation follows the recommendations of the HTML5 rendering > section, then I think the following CSS should be enough: > > .buttonAsLink { > binding: none; > color: blue; > text-decoration: underline; > } > > However I don't think that is the case in any implementations *yet*. > > / Jonas > > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Thursday, 17 June 2010 10:34:21 UTC