RE: {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2010-08-19: WG decisions, Decision Policy, TF reports

Minutes available here: http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html

[Description: W3C]<http://www.w3.org/>

- DRAFT -
HTML Weekly Teleconference
19 Aug 2010

Agenda<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2010JulSep/0015.html>

See also: IRC log<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-irc>

Attendees
Present
Plh, +1.732.859.aaaa, paulc, Sam, [Microsoft], eliot, Julian, Eric_Carlson, Mike, Cynthia_Shelly, adrianba, +1.425.941.aabb, John_Foliot, krisk, Rich, Janina.a, Janina, Joshue, Maciej
Regrets
Chair
Paul Cotton
Scribe
Adrian Bateman
Contents

  *   Topics<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#agenda>
     *   ACTION items due by Thursday, Aug 19<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item01>
     *   New Issues This Week<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item02>
     *   Working Group decisions<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item03>
     *   Decision Policy Update, Maciej S<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item04>
     *   Items closed last week<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item05>
     *   Items Closing This Week<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item06>
     *   Current WG Surveys<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item07>
     *   Task Force reports - Testing Task Force<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item08>
     *   Task Force reports - Accessibility Task Force<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item09>
     *   Misc items<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item10>
     *   Other business<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item11>
     *   Scribe for next meeting<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item12>
     *   Adjournment<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#item13>
  *   Summary of Action Items<http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#ActionSummary>

________________________________
ACTION items due by Thursday, Aug 19

paulc: None
New Issues This Week

paulc: None
Working Group decisions

paulc: two parts, pending which hasn't changed and a separate item pending appeal

ISSUE-30?

<trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- closed

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-30 - Web Performance Working Group Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: think it would be appropriate to have the team give an update

<JF> http://www.malform.no/messages/appeal-issue-30.html

<pimpbot> Title: Appeal of ISSUE-30 to the Team Contact (at www.malform.no)

MikeSmith: as i understand it Leif has asked for this to be escalated for the attention of the director

<JF> "...in the end caused me to write this Appeal to the Director - via the Team Contact, Mike Smith."

MikeSmith: I'm not sure what action we need to take
... escalating within the team means working harder to reach consensus
... course of action is for Leif and others to continue to have a discussion with the chairs about it
... if that's acceptable to the chairs
... if the chairs would like another approach we can do that
... the language in the process document means we don't escalate issues like this
... if someone in the WG feels their not getting due process from chairs then the team contacts take action on that
... if chairs are acting in bad faith or does not have a foundation in the working process of the group the team should step in to fix that
... i don't feel that we are there with this issue or any other that has come up so far
... i think the right way is to continue to deal with this in the group

paul: are you putting this back in the chairs court?

plh: not yet - there is still more discussion that needs to happen

jf: for the record, the chairs mentioned an option to escalate to the director

janina: but not as a suggestion, more to complete the options

paulc: i was really trying to make sure my view of the options was out there
... i take that if plh is telling us this isn't in the chairs hands then the team and the chairs will continue to work on this

plh: the team didn't reply so the chairs can't give a timeline
... i can't give a timeline right now
... in theory this could run until last call
... but we don't want to wait that long if possible

Joshue: this seems to be a deadlock between the TF and the WG
... i hope this doesn't diminish the steps we're taking to improve a11y in html5
... we're looking for guidance from the chairs about how to move forward

paulc: we're spending a lot of time on this

<JF> +1 to Josh

Joshue: we have to try to work out some kind of way to find a solution that both sides are happy with and that improves a11y in the spec

paulc: this is the first time the wg has made a decision that has not gone the way the TF wanted
... i'll leave that comment standing, if your question was a follow-on to the question of timeline
... i will say that we're working on this and trying to find an acceptable solution
... i'm going to try to move us on
... it's obvious that the chairs and the team need to give this a high priority and we're doing that

JF: please can you communicate this back to public-html

plh: this is one of the highest priority items that the team and chairs are dealing with

paulc: I will take the request for mail to the next chairs meeting
Decision Policy Update, Maciej S

paulc: in the agenda there are links to the current, draft edited, and to the outstanding bugs
... outstanding bugs most important: http://w3.org/brief/MTk0

<pimpbot> Title: Bug List (at w3.org)

mjs: most of the bugs have been filed over time and dealt with
... the most important remaining one is the process for getting into Last Call

<thugbot> [localhost] MikeSmith: bugzilla problem: HTTP error 500

mjs: we're working with the team on identifying the best way to handle this
... fpwd bug will probably not update the policy - they don't happen very often and we don't have problem handling them

paulc: i think it's fair to say that if we weren't discussing the LC bug we'd have distributed the v2 to the WG for consensus
... and we're going to try to figure out the LC plan as soon as possible so that we can hand all this to the WG soon
Items closed last week

<paulc_> issue-41?

<trackbot> ISSUE-41 -- Decentralized extensibility -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/41

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-41 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: we did a call for advocates on the 5 proposals for issue-41
... as a result the chairs have dropped change proposals 1 and 2 from the list
... this leaves us with 3 proposals

<paulc_> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-041

<pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)

paulc: chairs are pleased that we took this step - a survey with three proposals will be easier
... more likely that we'll have a successful survey with less items to respond to
... chairs are discussing schedule for taking this forward
... started on tuesday, will be on our agenda again on monday
... could be we'll do this fairly quickly
Items Closing This Week

ISSUE-109?

<trackbot> ISSUE-109 -- change ARIA section title and add extra text about use of ARIA -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/109

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-109 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: just bringing this to your attention
Current WG Surveys

paulc: None
Task Force reports - Testing Task Force

krisk: we met last on the 10th, meet again on 24th
... group is focussing on automating the getElementByClassName tests that msft and opera have submitted
... and reviewing canvas tests
... hoping that these will be completed by next time we report

<paulc_> paulc: Have you approved more tests?

<paulc_> Kris: No

krisk: ramification of the automation - we probably will go back and change tests already approved
... no more have been approved while we work on this

paulc: so you're focusing on this rather than increasing the approved test count

krisk: nothing else to report
Task Force reports - Accessibility Task Force

paulc: two specific items

ISSUE-85?

<trackbot> ISSUE-85 -- ARIA roles added to the a element should be conforming in HTML5 -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/85

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-85 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

ISSUE-9?

<trackbot> ISSUE-9 -- how accessibility works for <video> is unclear -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/9

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-9 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

janina: let me do them in reverse order
... judy and i worked on remaining edits for the requirements doc for media
... we commited to group that we will complete this by friday
... expecting that the doc will continue to evolve
... but we think it's relatively complete for the kind of things
... for the aria mappings, everyone in the tf agreed that this should come back to the chairs
... we did this before and the chairs asked for more edits
... we met to do this over the past couple of weeks and we have completed this
... will be coming within a day

<paulc_> Issue-9: When the Requirements are provided we will update http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-009 and the WG will discuss the Requirements.

<trackbot> ISSUE-9 how accessibility works for <video> is unclear notes added

<pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)

janina: in terms of other areas, we think we are still stuck on canvas
... we have our approach and ian wanted a different alternative - nothing new here so far
... keyboard access and drag&drop are things we need to focus on

<paulc_> Issue-85: When the TF has updated bug 10066 the Chairs will ensure it gets expedited processing.

<trackbot> ISSUE-85 ARIA roles added to the a element should be conforming in HTML5 notes added

<pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10066 faulkner.steve@gmail.com, P1, NEW, 13replace section 3.2.6 with the alternative spec text provided

janina: haven't taken up these yet

paulc: for issue 9 the change proposal page says it is for the tf to provide req document
... for issue-85 once the tf have updated bug 10066 the chairs will expedite it

janina: on cavnas, we think we're in a bit of a stalemate here
... between the editor and the tf recommendation
... sticking point between caret drawing and focus
... would require authors to take an extra step to get a11y
... ian wanted to come up with a caret drawing api that would deal with this automatically

<paulc_> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-074

<pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)

janina: but there is a good deal of engineering to do this
... we're looking for an estimate of how much effort this would be

paulc: it is fair to say that the chairs of PF and HTML WG are tracking this closely

janina: yes

paulc: one other item: i understand there is some progress looking at input queue of a11y bugs

janina: we recognise we haven't kept up with new bugs
... we have created subteams for specific tasks
... at the beginning of august we created a sub-team to look at these new bugs
... they have met twice and are making progress - expect to have recommendation from them next thursday
... last week they said they were half way through which is good progress

paulc: them progress is for taking up in tf?

janina

janina: in many cases it's resolutions

paulc: are you updating the bugs with recommendations from tf?

janina: i expect that is our next step

paulc: thanks for the positive news on issue 9 and 85
Misc items

ISSUE-27?

<trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- @rel value ownership, registry consideration -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-27 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: fair amount of discussion on the list

<Julian> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/link-relations/current/msg00057.html

<pimpbot> Title: Re: [link-relations] NEW APP DATA (at www.ietf.org)

julian: i think there are two points
... one, the designated experts in this case mark nottingham is asking w3c about what to do - ian pointed to whatwg spec

<Julian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/0139.html

<pimpbot> Title: link relation metadata considerations, was: Update on Issue-27, was: ACTION-182 and Issue-27 from Julian Reschke on 2010-08-13 (public-html@w3.org from August 2010) (at lists.w3.org)

two, the metadata question about adding new data

scribe: we didn't really agree in the link relations group about whether this is a good idea
... i made a proposal to the group (link above)
... but i haven't seen any discussion yet so not sure how to proceed

paulc: first question, for the registration ian was attempting we need to get agreement on which link to use?

julian: we need to decide whether to point to w3c or whatwg and if w3c is it wd or ed
... i think w3c needs to decide this

paulc: does either plh or mikesmith want to comment?

<plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5

<pimpbot> Title: HTML5 (at www.w3.org)

plh: i haven't reviewed this but my answer would be to link to the TR version

paulc: that coincides with what i suggested

<MikeSmith> issue-27?

<trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- @rel value ownership, registry consideration -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-27 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: is our problem here that we have issue-27, we're in the implementation phase, how should we proceed here?

julian: i think the question related to issue-27 is we are now testing to see if the registry works
... this includes a number of things including adding the registry then adding more meta data
... for the things in html4 and html5, someone should send a mail to the link relations to update these and point to the latest html5 doc
... we haven't had that
... what we have had is an attempt to link to whatwg
... the designated experts weren't happy with that

paulc: sounds like someone should take an action to do that

julian: i think it would be strange for me to do this

rubys: a different suggestion that doesn't directly address this
... maybe it is time for us to issue call for counter proposals for issue-27
... may be there is consensus for a different approach - this is being suggested on the mailing list
... i think it is time to call for concrete proposals

paulc: in some ways you're asking my question over again - i asked about bugs but you're saying that we need the questions in the original proposals marked up?
... i think i was saying the same thing that you did
... we have a change proposal the wg endorsed - you're suggesting we need to edit this

rubys: i'm not sure the wg endorsed this

paulc: then we should try to get consensus about these including potentially alternate change proposals
... julian, could we get into the change proposal the various questions

<Julian> it was Mark

paulc: i also think we should get someone to take the action to send the mail on html4/5 to the link relations list
... do i have a volunteer?

julian: i can help draft the mail but someone else needs to send it

<paulc_> ACTION on paulc for the things in html4 and html5, send a mail to the link relations email list to update these and point to the latest html5 doc

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on

<Julian> mailing list info: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/link-relations

<pimpbot> Title: link-relations Info Page (at www.ietf.org)

MikeSmith: please put the action on me

<paulc_> ACTION on miketm for the things in html4 and html5, send a mail to the link relations email list to update these and point to the latest html5 doc

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on

<paulc_> ACTION miketm for the things in html4 and html5, send a mail to the link relations email list to update these and point to the latest html5 doc

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - miketm

<paulc_> ACTION" michaeltm fo the things in html4 and html5, send a mail to the link relations email list to update these and point to the latest html5 doc

<paulc_> ACTION: michaeltm for the things in html4 and html5, send a mail to the link relations email list to update these and point to the latest html5 doc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - michaeltm

<MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to ... for the things in html4 and html5, send a mail to the link relations email list to update these and point to the latest html5 doc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-185 - ... for the things in html4 and html5, send a mail to the link relations email list to update these and point to the latest html5 doc [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2010-08-26].

julian: the other question was the two flags of meta data ian wants to add
... about the effect on an A element and a LINK element
... had been in the html spec for a long time
... was in the change proposals for issue-27
... but it could mean that a link relation could be disallowed on a link element
... but it would be odd for a link relation to not be allowed on a link element
... so i would like us to discuss this

<Julian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/0139.html

<pimpbot> Title: link relation metadata considerations, was: Update on Issue-27, was: ACTION-182 and Issue-27 from Julian Reschke on 2010-08-13 (public-html@w3.org from August 2010) (at lists.w3.org)

julian: without this the metadata in the link registry would be simpler
... if the html wg decides that's what we want then the ietf will register these flags
... but we'd like the html wg to make sure this really makes sense

paulc: can you file this as a bug?

julian: i have filed bugs - i need to investigate the status

paulc: if they've been rejected and you disagree then escalate

<paulc_> ACTION: julian to investigate status of bugs on link relations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-186 - Investigate status of bugs on link relations [on Julian Reschke - due 2010-08-26].

julian: not sure if this is already done - will check and come back by tomorrow

paulc: these actions should move things along, we may need to consider sam's approach after
Other business

paulc: None
Scribe for next meeting

paulc: volunteers?

<paulc_> Paul will volunteer to scribe next week.
Adjournment

paulc: adjourned

<paulc_> Adjourned at 12:55 ET

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: julian to investigate status of bugs on link relations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael(tm) to ... for the things in html4 and html5, send a mail to the link relations email list to update these and point to the latest html5 doc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: michaeltm for the things in html4 and html5, send a mail to the link relations email list to update these and point to the latest html5 doc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

[End of minutes]



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Cotton
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:00 PM
To: public-html-wg-announce@w3.org
Cc: Sam Ruby (rubys@intertwingly.net); Maciej Stachowiak; Adrian Bateman; Kris Krueger; Janina Sajka
Subject: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-08-19: WG decisions, Decision Policy, TF reports



The HTML Working Group will have its usual weekly teleconference on

2010-08-19 for 60 minutes from 16:00Z to 17:00Z.



  http://timeanddate.com/s/1r8t



Tokyo 01:00+1, Amsterdam/Oslo 18:00, London/Dublin 17:00, New

Jersey/York 12 noon, Kansas City 11:00, Seattle/San Francisco 09:00.



Chair of the meeting: Paul Cotton

Scribe: Adrian Bateman



(See the end of this email for dial-in and IRC info.)



== Agenda ==



1. ACTION items due by Thursday, Aug 19

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda



None.



2. New Issues This Week:



None.



3. Working Group decisions



Pending Appeal:



a) ISSUE-30: longdesc (survey closed Jun 30)

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-30-objection-poll/results

Objection:

http://www.malform.no/messages/appeal-issue-30.html



Pending:



a) ISSUE-4 versioning / ISSUE-84 legacy-doctypes (survey closed Jul 30)

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-4-84-objection-poll/results



b) ISSUE-88: content-language-multiple (survey closed Jun 30)

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-88-objection-poll/results



c) ISSUE-96 progress (survey closed May 19)

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-96-objection-poll/results



d) ISSUE-97 meter (survey closed May 19)

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-97-objection-poll/results



e) ISSUE-101 us-ascii-ref (survey closed Jul 30)

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-101-objection-poll/results



4. Decision Policy Update, Maciej S



a) Current Decision Policy

http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html



b) Draft edited Decision Policy

http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy-v2.html



b) Outstanding bugs and next steps

http://w3.org/brief/MTk0



5. Items closed last week



a) ISSUE-41 decentralized-extensibility: call for advocates

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/0047.html



Two proposals have been dropped:



http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/0209.html



6. Items Closing This Week



a) issue-109 (aria-section-title)

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-109-objection-poll/



7. Current WG Surveys



None not covered above.



8. Task Force reports



a) Testing Task Force (Kris K)



b) Accessibility Task Force (Janina S)



i) Status of Bug 10066 for ISSUE-085:

http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-085

Bug 10066:

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10066



ii) Status of Requirements document for ISSUE-9:

http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-009



9. Misc items



a) ISSUE-27 update and next steps

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27



10. Other business



11. Scribe for next meeting



Chair for next week: Maciej Stachowiak

Scribe for next week: Volunteers?



12. Adjournment



== Dial-in and IRC Details ==



Zakim teleconference bridge

+1.617.761.6200, +33.4.26.46.79.03, +44.203.318.0479

code: HTML (4865)



Supplementary IRC chat (logged)

#html-wg on irc.w3.org port 6665 or port 80