Minutes of HTML WG meeting, Apr 22 2010

The minutes of the Apr 22 meeting are available below and at:

Paul Cotton, Microsoft Canada
17 Eleanor Drive, Ottawa, Ontario K2E 6A3
Tel: (425) 705-9596 Fax: (425) 936-7329


HTML Weekly Teleconference
22 Apr 2010



  *   Topics<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#agenda>
     *   1. ACTION items due by Thu Apr 22<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item01>
     *   2. Issues with deadlines due by April 22:<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item02>
     *   3. WG Decision Policy update (Maciej)<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item03>
     *   4. Items that close this week (by Thu Apr 22)<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item04>
     *   5. Items that close next week (by Thu Apr 29)<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item05>
     *   6. New Calls for Proposals/Counter Proposals/Consensus this Week<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item06>
     *   7. New Issues This Week<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item07>
     *   8. Accessibility Task Force Recommendations<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item08>
     *   9. Call for Volunteers for Polyglot specification (Adrian)<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item09>
     *   10. Other Business<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item10>
     *   11. Scribe for next meeting<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item11>
     *   12. Adjournment<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#item12>
  *   Summary of Action Items<http://www.w3.org/2010/04/22-html-wg-minutes.html#ActionSummary>


<Sirisian> What's doug's name here?

<shepazu> I'm Doug

<shepazu> I guess you're wondering about setCapture?

<shepazu> Sirisian: I removed it earlier today, after a telcon with Mozilla and Microsoft, who suggested that it would be better in a later spec (the pen-tablet/multi-touch/gestures spec)

<Sirisian> yeah you linked to something?

<shepazu> it's still there in older versions of the spec

<shepazu> but the browser vendors don't think it's ready for standardization

<Sirisian> So would the idea be a method where you could take over the mouse and keep it from leaving the window and get the mouse move offsets and such?

<Sirisian> shepazu, I don't think you understood what I meant.

<Sirisian> I just read what you wrote in the spec

<Sirisian> seems to be a different idea all together

<shepazu> prevent the mouse from leaving the window?

<shepazu> that seems like a very bad idea, and probably not really possible for browsers

<Sirisian> shepazu, ever used java?

<shepazu> yes

<Sirisian> Java has the ability to capture and hold the mouse like an application.

<Sirisian> It's had this ability since the beginning of time. Unity has the ability to do this too.

<Sirisian> "not really possible for browsers" ? what? That doesn't make any sense.

<Sirisian> Warn the user before it happens is one possible method. Java doesn't warn the user. Pressing escape releases the mouse and clicking captures the mouse. Many java games use it. I've noticed that with WebGL games coming out it would be useful.

<Sirisian> or canvas games which I've messed around with also, but I've been using WebGL more recently.

<shepazu> I understood you to mean (just now) that the mouse couldn't leave the window... I've only seen that in virtualizers

<shepazu> but yes, it does seem like we were talking about 2 different things

<shepazu> so, I'l correct my comments on that thread, and someone else can pick it up if they are interested

<Sirisian> okay thanks

<shepazu> for myself, I don't like any application that steals my mouse control, so I wouldn't want to see it

<Sirisian> you're against webapps?

<shepazu> please don't use rhetoric

<Sirisian> I like the idea of giving web pages the full power of normal applications in a sandbox. Always liked that concept.

<Sirisian> sorry for saying it like that. That came off odd.

<Sirisian> Are you against the right mouse button cancelling the context menu also?

<Sirisian> I've given up trying to get that into the spec since Opera doesn't like the idea of web pages using the right mouse button it seems.

<shepazu> I also want to give browsers a full range of access to system resources, which is why I spend an inordinate amount of time devoting my energy to specing the behavior out

<mjs> preventing the mouse from leaving the browser window is something we'd be very hesitant to implement

<mjs> it seems like it could easily confuse the user

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9574] New: Floating point number tolerance <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0762.html>

<mjs> letting the web page capture mouse events while the mouse button is down seems acceptable though

<shepazu> I don't like authors canceling the context menu, but I do favor allowing authors to supply an alternate context menu

<Sirisian> mjs, Java developers didn't think so

<mjs> Sirisian: a Java applet can keep the mouse from leaving the window?

<Sirisian> Well most of what I'm saying is in regards to games. WebGL and canvas have a lot of potential to get rid of flash.

<Sirisian> mjs, for like 10 years...

<mjs> example?

<Sirisian> mjs, Ever play minecraft?

<Sirisian> It's a fun online game with voxel worlds.

<mjs> or if you have a Flash example that would be relevant as well

<mjs> nope

<Sirisian> http://www.minecraft.net/servers.jsp <-- probably have to login then just click a server to play

<pimpbot> Title: Minecraft (at www.minecraft.net)

<Sirisian> I'm remaking it in WebGL or trying to atm.

<mjs> oh, forgot that I have Java disabled

<shepazu> Sirisian: what case would this solve that simply going fullscreen wouldn't?

<mjs> Minecraft seems to use a signed applet

<Sirisian> mjs, yeah

<mjs> so that means it's exceeding the limits of what applets are normally allowed to do

<Sirisian> shepazu, mouse offsets

<mjs> do you know what things it does that require signed code?

<Sirisian> shepazu, imagine an FPS game or an RTS game where the user scrolls to the edges ofthe screen. What you want is offsets of the mouse.

<Sirisian> mjs, I don't program in Java much. Someone told me a while ago when they were trying to make a similar type game, but I don't remember.

<mjs> hmm, the signature is unverified, too

<shepazu> mjs: it's a Java program, I'm sure it's trustworthy

<mjs> shepazu: ... right

<mjs> Sirisian: what it seems to be doing is moving the mouse pointer back every time I move it

<shepazu> why would somebody use a game to do hinky things on your computer?

<Sirisian> mjs, yeah

<mjs> I guess so you can use the mouse to aim?

<mjs> shepazu: you must be new on the internets :-)

<Sirisian> or for an RTS game to scroll off the edges of the screen.

<shepazu> :)

<Sirisian> But yeah. http://www.assaultwars.com/pictures/raycasting6.png

<Sirisian> programmed that the other day and I've been messing around. I'm just using mouse offsets from the center to control the camera rotation which is rather ad-hoc. Was hoping to make a twitch based FPS with my networking stuff

<mjs> that's neat

<Bjartr> That's not ad-hoc at all, that's exactly how native games do it, except they can return the mouse to the center each frame (when playing in windowed mode in some games you can move the mouse far enough in one frame that you end up clicking outside the app and losing focus, really the same issue being discussed here, but 99% mitigated)

<Sirisian> Bjartr, no I mean I have it set up so the mouse doesn't return to the center of the screen. If the browser allowed it I'd return the mouse to the center.

<Sirisian> which is what you said basically

<Bjartr> I know, I guess I misunderstood what you meant by 'ad-hoc'

<Bjartr> limited mouse capture (as opposed to explicit mouse control) would be a good compromise in terms of maintaining security vs providing functionality e.g. a JS app could request permission (a la notification or geolocation) to confine the mouse to a particular client coordinate (so no moving the mouse outside the app) plus a limitation to how frequently such permission requests could be made and an escape mechanism (e.g. pressing escape rescinds permission and rel

<Sirisian> yeah that's what I was hoping for. escape seems to be a well supported key too. :\

<shepazu> meh, I guess I don't play games enough... I still wouldn't want the mouse pointer to be taken out of my control

<Bjartr> It's not that it's out of your control, it's that the mode of control has changed to relative as opposed to absolute

<Bjartr> And then if you never want it to happen, if something like my suggestion were used, so long as you never clicked 'allow' in the browser permission request dialog you'd never have it happen

<Bjartr> additionally, alt-tab away should release the mouse and alt-tabbing back should resume capture (hmm, that would bring up whether or not to store the last non-captured position and return the cursor there when it is released)

<Sirisian> It's not like a regular user would ever notice it. It would just be nice for gamers that are seeing webGL as cool but quickly realizing that the browser is holding it back by not allowing this feature.

<Bjartr> Well the use case today would be games, but who knows what someone could make in terms of e.g. data visualization

<Sirisian> yeah true

<mjs> Bjartr: users don't read dialogs

<Bjartr> Then why use them for notifications and geolocation?

<Bjartr> I'd say disclosure of physical location has the potential to be more dangerous than having your mouse stuck 'till you alt-tab or hit esc

<Sirisian> mjs, that's why you have to make it not a pop-up dialog with a yes or no.

<Sirisian> oh he left

<Sirisian> I was thinking along the lines of the pop-up warning or something the settings of the browser with an allowed site list

<Bjartr> No, Sirisian, he was reffering to the fact that the majority of users will not read the dialog (this is a well documented fact) and will just click yes without considering the consequences because that makes the dialog go away

<Sirisian> Bjartr, yeah so you can't use that

<Bjartr> You *can*, you just have to understand the limitations

<Sirisian> I was suggesting another method that's more of a power-user feature. Kind of like how opera tried to make the ability to turn off the right click menu but then broke their own feature to spite people.

<Bjartr> again, testing the geolocation feature of HTML pinpointed *exactly* where I am, not sure how, I'd wager it's doing more than geoip. While really cool, it has far more potential to be abused than mouse capture

<pimpbot> changes: mjs: Record counter-proposal for issues 90, 91, 93, 95, 95, 97. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Apr/0289.html>

<pimpbot> planet: With the advent of HTML 5, is there a point in using COMET anymore? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2688094/with-the-advent-of-html-5-is-there-a-point-in-using-comet-anymore> 4** Drag-and-drop file upload in Chromium? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2657653/drag-and-drop-file-upload-in-chromium>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9575] header lacks footer’s reference to scoping (nearest ancestor sectioning element/body) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0764.html> 4** [Bug 9575] New: header lacks footer’s reference to scoping (nearest ancestor sectioning element/body) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0763.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9577] New: Define the x and y attributes. Both Gecko and WebKit have them and apparently some sites depend on them :/ <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0766.html> 4** [Bug 9576] New: just say "an ASCII case-insensitive match for "URL"" instead of "either a U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U character (U) or a U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U character (u), a U+0052 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R character (R) or a U+0072 LAT

<pimpbot> planet: How do i tint an image with HTML5 Canvas ? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2688961/how-do-i-tint-an-image-with-html5-canvas> 4** Ah, that wonderful Flash installation experience... <11http://adblockplus.org/blog/ah-that-wonderful-flash-installation-experience>

<pimpbot> planet: ImageData of an externally loaded Image? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2688987/imagedata-of-an-externally-loaded-image>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9578] On http-state it was mentioned that browsers support Set-Cookie here. Ugh! <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0768.html> 4** [Bug 9578] New: On http-state it was mentioned that browsers support Set-Cookie here. Ugh! <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0767.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9572] test for gears, i like it <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0770.html> 4** [Bug 9573] spec input.onsearch <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0769.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9579] New: An element should not suffer from pattern mismatch if the pattern attribute value is the empty string <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0771.html>

<pimpbot> planet: HTML5 database storage (SQL lite) - few questions <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2689939/html5-database-storage-sql-lite-few-questions>

<pimpbot> planet: HTML5: bolt-on or built-in accessibility? <11http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/html5-bolt-on-or-built-in-accessibility/>

<pimpbot> planet: HTML5 is my Arcade. Akihabara. <11http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/2mM0w47gNJ8/html5-is-my-arcade-akihabara>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9582] New: Steps for handling end tags in the "in foreign" mode get stuck in an infinite loop <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0774.html> 4** [Bug 9581] New: Steps for handling end tags in the "in foreign" mode may compare the name of an already-popped node <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0773.html> 4** [Bug 9580] New: Steps for handling end tags in the "in foreign"

<pimpbot> planet: Flex 4 vs JavaScript Options (Cappuccino, JQuery, etc.) <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2670182/flex-4-vs-javascript-options-cappuccino-jquery-etc>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9439] UA should not change values of input elements in telephone state <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Apr/0775.html>

trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 22 April 2010

<Julian> that was me

<pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-22: Action items, issues, decision policy, A11Y recommendations, polyglot spec from Paul Cotton on 2010-04-21 (public-html@w3.org from April 2010) (at lists.w3.org)

<scribe> scribe: rubys
1. ACTION items due by Thu Apr 22

paulc: none due this week, some will be due later this month
2. Issues with deadlines due by April 22:

paulc: issue-27 is overdue, julian reported in message 1058 that the IESG will take this up today, hopefully julian can provide an email report after that is complete.
3. WG Decision Policy update (Maciej)

<paulc> Bug 9954

<pimpbot> Bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9954 was not found.

<paulc> Bug 9554

<pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9554 mjs@apple.com, P2, NEW, 13Define procedure for entering Last Call

paulc: doesn't see maciej on the call, and wants to note new bug to deal with the process to get into last call
4. Items that close this week (by Thu Apr 22)


<trackbot> ISSUE-82 -- Suggested replacement for head/@profile does not provide for disambiguation -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/82

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-82 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: will come back to this item in agenda item 6a
5. Items that close next week (by Thu Apr 29)


<trackbot> ISSUE-78 -- Spec should use a term other than "URL" for Web Addresses -- RAISED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/78

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: will close without prejudice is no change proposals are received by saturday
6. New Calls for Proposals/Counter Proposals/Consensus this Week


<trackbot> ISSUE-82 -- Suggested replacement for head/@profile does not provide for disambiguation -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/82

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-82 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: we have a change proposal which appears to have support, so we have issued a CfC for amicable resolution that closes on april 27th


<trackbot> ISSUE-88 -- Should meta/@content allow a list of languages instead of just a single language? -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/88

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-88 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: waiting to get feedback from the I18N working group; we've received private email

<paulc> I18N WG supports the proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0308.html

<pimpbot> Title: Proposal to make Content-Language pragma non-conforming altogether for ISSUE-88 (mark I) from Ian Hickson on 2010-04-09 (public-html@w3.org from April 2010) (at lists.w3.org)

paulc: at this point the chairs have the input we need to move forward, we will like issue a consensus poll ASAP



<trackbot> ISSUE-89 -- Remove Section 4.12 Common Idioms without dedicated Elements -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/89

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-89 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)


<trackbot> ISSUE-92 -- Re-write the Table section to remove extraneous material, and provide cleaner description -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/92

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-92 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)


<trackbot> ISSUE-103 -- XML escaping in iframe/@srcdoc -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/103

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)


<trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Politics in fallback example for plugin usage -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/107

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-107 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: chairs issued a call for counter proposals on all four of the above, this call closes on Victoria day...
... any volunteers?
7. New Issues This Week

paulc: none
... that's a good sign
8. Accessibility Task Force Recommendations


<trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-30 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: the TF prefers the proposal that restores longdesc

8. Accessibility Task Force Recommendations


<pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/LongdescConformingWithWarning - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

janina: we prefer the proposal without warnings, but are prepared to accept warnings

paulc: that's very useful information to have


<trackbot> ISSUE-66 -- image analysis heuristics -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/66

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-66 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: the TF supports the proposal to remove the image heuristics paragraph


<pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImageHeuristics - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

janina: we don't disagree with the idea of heuristics, but we don't want to rely on it


<trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-80 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: the TF does not accept @title as a substitute for @alt


<pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

paulc: next up is the HTML-A11Y Task Force Recommendation on ISSUES-90, 91, 93, 95, 96, & 97
... the TF opposes the change proposals to remove the elements, and maintains the work item to check these elements and make them better

janina: we felt that each of these elements can or will improve accessibility
... you can expect an additional resolution from us this week

<Laura> Shelley has responded and asked questions of the TF: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/1111.html

<pimpbot> Title: General Response to the Accessibility Task force on Issues 90, 91, 93, 96, 97 from Shelley Powers on 2010-04-22 (public-html@w3.org from April 2010) (at lists.w3.org)


<pimpbot> Title: Zero-edit Change Proposal for ISSUE-90 figure, ISSUE-91 aside, ISSUE-93 details, ISSUE-95 hidden, ISSUE-96 progress, and ISSUE-97 meter from Edward O'Connor on 2010-04-22 (public-html@w3.org from April 2010) (at lists.w3.org)


<pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/KeepNewElements - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

<paulc> Msg 366.html points to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/keephidden.

<pimpbot> Title: User:Eoconnor/keephidden. - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

<cyns> Here's the thread on it as well http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/1098.html

<pimpbot> Title: Zero-edit Change Proposal for ISSUE-90 figure, ISSUE-91 aside, ISSUE-93 details, ISSUE-95 hidden, ISSUE-96 progress, and ISSUE-97 meter from Edward O'Connor on 2010-04-22 (public-html@w3.org from April 2010) (at lists.w3.org)

janina: we expect the TF will endorse Edward's counter proposal via a poll

<mjs> sorry I'm late, dialing now

paulc: we would expect further input after the TF meeting next thursday

<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0208.html

<pimpbot> Title: Fwd: General Response to the Accessibility Task force on Issues 90, 91, 93, 96, 97 from Laura Carlson on 2010-04-22 (public-html-a11y@w3.org from April 2010) (at lists.w3.org)

paulc (on behalf of the co-chairs): thank you to Janina for bringing this forward
9. Call for Volunteers for Polyglot specification (Adrian)


<pimpbot> Title: RE: Request for Volunteers: Polyglot spec from Eliot Graff on 2010-04-21 (public-html@w3.org from April 2010) (at lists.w3.org)


<pimpbot> Title: HTML/XHTML Compatibility Authoring Guidelines (at dev.w3.org)

Eliot: I uploaded an early draft based on two useful references provided by Sam. I've gotten good feedback from a number of members on the list.

paulc: I'm going to take this draft and follow up with the TAG co-chairs, and will attempt to get input from the tag
... at some point we are going to recommend that people switch to bugzilla (we already have reports of changes on top of other people's suggestions)

eliot: when we get to that point, I will ask for people to open bugs
10. Other Business

janina: we are to be delivering deadlines on issues that we haven't finished by next week. The ARIA-mappings deadline may slip (about a week). It is also possible that media may not have coalesced around deadlines. She things the others are fairly well in hand.
... there may be one new issue that we will escalate, namely the accessibility of drag and drop. We will identify a deadline when we escalate.

paulc: next week will be our normal bi-weekly status; we encourage you to provide input in writing. The agenda will enumerate the issues.


<trackbot> ISSUE-41 -- Decentralized extensibility -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/41

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-41 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

plh: what is the plan for this issue?

paulc: we perused about 15 issues, and this resulted in 5-6 counter proposals, we had 3-4 which were blocked....
... it simply is in our pending queue...

plh: given facebook's recent announcement, this is new information

paulc: bring this up on the mailing list?

s/is more urgent/has new information/

paulc: this simply was a bandwidth item, we will discuss it new week...
11. Scribe for next meeting

paulc: co-chairs will pick a scribe

<cardona507> quick meeting today

(revisited decision policy agenda item, no new information)
12. Adjournment

<paulc> adjounred at :33

paulc: adjourned

<Laura> bye

Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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a link to the original IRC log.)

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Received on Monday, 26 April 2010 16:54:22 UTC