Re: ISSUE-81 (resource vs representation)

On Sep 28, 2009, at 3:27 PM, Nikunj R. Mehta wrote:

>
> On Sep 27, 2009, at 3:23 AM, Maciej Stachowiak wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2009, at 2:45 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>
>>> Furthermore, as explained earlier, HTML5 is inconsistent in  
>>> itself; and that's something that should be fixed. If "Foobar" is  
>>> the thing identified by a URL (HTML5) then it simply can't be a  
>>> bag-of-bits at the same time.
>>
>> Natural language is context-sensitive. I don't think any actual  
>> confusion is caused.
>
>
> I could present counterexamples to your assertion. Here are a few  
> examples of the confusion caused by fungible use of the terms  
> resource, file, and object/document.

Before I go searching in the spec, may I ask if you were sincerely  
unable to find the answers to the following questions in normative  
spec text?

>
> A file cannot have infinite length - a resource can - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#concept-fetch-total
> A resource cannot be both a bag of bits and be an active object,  
> e.g., make a call or request another resource - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#fetching-resources
> A resource is a bag of bits, but fetching a resource brings back a  
> set of "out-of-band" headers as well. How does this make sense?  
> Where does the "bag" start or end? What exactly is "out-of-band"?
> A resource may not be external - e.g., a javascript: URL? What bits  
> does an "internal" resource imply?
> A resource may be a sub resource. However, what exactly is one -  
> does it have a URI without a fragment identifier? Can I tell based  
> on looking only at the URI whether something is a subresource? If  
> not, which parts of an HTML user agent be affected by the semantics  
> of subresources?
> Each entry in the list of pending master entries of an application  
> cache consists of a resource and a Document object. What is the  
> relation between the resource, the master resource, and the  
> resource's Document?
> Multiple application caches can contain the same resource. Does this  
> mean they each have their own bags of bits or just the URL of that  
> resource? When selecting an application cache, what is it that user  
> agents look for a bag of bits or the URI of the resource being  
> searched?
> When I think of cookies, they are per host and path, and not per  
> resource. What then is the meaning of a resource's cookies as  
> suggested in 3.1.3?
>
> Can "resource" be all of the following at the same time?

As far as I can tell, yes. Can you clarify which of the following  
properties you think are mutually exclusive?

> A resource may have metadata (per section 2.5.1)
> A resource may generate Request-URIs (per section 2.1.1)
> A resource may be external or not (per section 2.1.1)
> A resource has semantics (per section 2.1.1)
> A resource has a format or type (per section 2.1.1)
> A resource may have metadata (per section 2.5.1)
> A resource has an identifier (per section 2.5.1)
> A resource can be fetched (per section 2.6)
> A resource may be incrementally processed (per section 2.6)
> A resource may or may not be available (per section 2.6)
> A resource may be cached (per section 2.6)
> A resource may be type sniffed (per section 2.6)
> A resource has a host (per section 2.6.2)
> A resource can be either binary or text (per section 2.6.3)
> A resource has cookies (per section 3.1.3)
> Something may be a subresource (per section 4.2.4)
>
> Perhaps a certain amount of context switching will be required of  
> the reader, no matter what. Perhaps we expect every user agent  
> developer and Web author to understand this complexity. Regardless,  
> this document will certainly be adding to the entropy around  
> resources.
>
> I would like to hear your responses rather than spend a lot of my  
> time digging through the spec to find more instances of confusion  
> caused by the undefined terms "resource", "subresource", "external  
> resource" and their interchangeable use with other terms.

I'll do my best to reply further if you can provide the answers to my  
two questions above.

Regards,
Maciej