- From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:06:57 -0500
- To: public-html-wg-announce@w3.org, public-html@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-html-wg-minutes.html
HTML Weekly Teleconference
13 Aug 2009
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JulSep/0014.html
Attendees
Present
Rich, DanC, Sam, Shepazu, Julian, msporny_, Cynthia_Shelly,
MikeSmith, dsinger, Cooper, Matt_May, Adrian, johndrinkwater,
mjs, Mike, Chris_Wilson, smedero, kliehm
Regrets
Chris_Wilson, Laura_Carlson
Chair
Sam
Scribe
DanC
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Issue-35/Action-114 aria-processing
2. [5]Issue-32/Action-128 table-summary
3. [6]Issue-74/Action-133 canvas-accessibility
4. [7]creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force
5. [8]Action-34 authoring-guide
6. [9]Action-106 test-suite-coordination
7. [10]Action-115 TPAC-participants-signup
8. [11]Issue-4/Action-129 html-versioning
9. [12]Clearing out cruft in the issues list
10. [13]Heartbeat publication poll (reminder)
* [14]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Date: 13 August 2009
<scribe> scribe: DanC
<pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-13 from Sam Ruby on
2009-08-12 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from July to September
2009) (at lists.w3.org)
<rubys> next agedum
Issue-35/Action-114 aria-processing
Sam: I'd like to get the stuff blocking Ian Hickson's progress
unblocked
MC: the WAI PF WG is processing last call comments in batch, since
they can interact. But since this is blocking progress, perhaps we
could tentatively share our response in this case
Sam: that would be great
MC: I don't have the details to hand...
Rich: there have been several related comments [related to what?
scribe could use some help]
Rich: where's the best place to send our tentative response?
Sam: on public-html is fine
MC: I can collaborate with concerned parties and get that out in a
few days
Rich: current [aria] design is that with the exception of @role,
host language overrides.
[discussion of details of @role and other details exceeds scribe's
bandwidth]
[scribe hopes this will get replayed in email]
mjs: I see 2 separate issues here...
... with aria state conflicting with native state...
... one is w.r.t. implementation; e.g. in the case of input
type=-radio_button role=check_box, what does the assistive tech do?
mjs: 2nd issue is w.r.t. conformance... a host language making
something [non?]conforming are [orthoganal?] to the implementation
issue
MC: tentatively, yes that [help? that=?] is a way we'd be willing to
go...
mjs: tentative answers are totally OK...
... specifically on @role...
... I think Ian and some others are inclined to say some values of
@role in some cases are non-conforming
<Philip> "< Hixie> e.g. <h1 role=checkbox> shouldn't be valid
either, and should act like an <h1> to ATs, not a checkbox"
<Philip> (from #whatwg last night)
<msporny_> DanC, combobox on role="checkbox" should raise a
validation error.
mjs gives some details regarding strong and not so strong
situations...
<dsinger> I think maciej is asking that some of these conflicts at
least should be conformance errors?
Rich: that [some @role cases being non-conformting] sounds,
tentatively, like something we could work together on, yes.
<msporny_> so <input type="radiobutton" role="combobox" ...> should
raise a validation error.
<shepazu> [that all seems reasonable and obvious to me... why would
this have been blocking?]
mjs: yes, we'll be sure to get adequate review on this... but
specifically, there's a prohibition on [more details that sound
familiar from public-html email... about a specific ARIA constraint
about host langauges overriding]
Rich: MC, I think we can take this back to the [WAI PF] WG
Rich: anybody else in that call/collaboration?
mjs: I suggest hsivonen; much of the technical detail I'm relaying
come from him
Rich: many thanks for the review comments; these are helpful for
crafting the next ARIA draft
<msporny_> Yes, Maciej - appreciate your comments, they have been
very helpful (even if I don't agree with all of them)
DanC: so who has the ball?
MC: so I can send tentative details. and 2nd, work with macie and
hsivonen and Ian
action-114 due next week
<trackbot> ACTION-114 Report progress on ARIA TF due date now next
week
Issue-32/Action-128 table-summary
<rubys> [15]http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/spec.html
[15] http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/spec.html
<pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
<DanC>(I couldn't find the relevant part of
[16]http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/spec.html , fwiw)
[16] http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/spec.html
action-128?
<trackbot> ACTION-128 -- Cynthia Shelly to work with PF to find an
owner for drafting @summary text proposal -- due 2009-08-06 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/128
[17] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/128
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-128 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
Cynthia: let's continue this action for a few weeks
DanC: it looks done, to me; what's left to do?
<mjs> presumably something has to be posted to public-html for this
item to be done
Cynthia: get review/consensus from various people in WAI PF and HTML
WG. Have we talked about the TF proposal yet?
Sam: not yet; that's on today's agenda
action-128 due next week
<trackbot> ACTION-128 Work with PF to find an owner for drafting
@summary text proposal due date now next week
Issue-74/Action-133 canvas-accessibility
action-133?
<trackbot> ACTION-133 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to develop an
accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to
specify alternative content -- due 2009-12-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/133
[18] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/133
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-133 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
Sam: is a december timeframe OK?
Rich: I'm working on this... looking at implementation stuff...
Cynthia: help from mozilla, opera and/or mac/apple would help
dsinger: ok... I've been looking more at accessibility of
audio/video, but perhaps we should bump up the priority of canvas
accessibility
mjs: what would help most in particular?
Rich: I'm interested to talk to developers of canvas applications
Doug: perhaps the bespin developers?
... things like processing.js that are just images aren't as
relevant as something like bespin
<dsinger> There are always 'tour-de-force' demonstrations (like
writing an editor in Canvas), but we should probably focus on
'reasonable' uses
Cynthia: we'd also like help from somebody that knows the apple
accessibility APIs
<Philip> Perhaps canvas graphing libraries are interesting
<Philip> (Canvas games presumably aren't interesting, because
they're usually inherently visual and can't be non-visually
accessible)
Doug: are there limits to our expectations on canvas accessibility?
e.g. a shoot-em-up-game
Cynthia: yes, a review of the use cases to consider practical
limitations makes sense
<kliehm> (Cannot get into telcon, is full) At PF Task Force we
agreed to examine the canvas examples on Laura's wiki page and note
down use cases. Bespin probably could have a shadow fallback DOM
with paragraphs, list items, code, and buttons. We need to identify
common cases first, then look for a solution.
<jgraham> I thought avoiding the performance penalty of DOM was a
goal of bespin
<kliehm> @jgraham, speed is an issue as canvas is faster than SVG,
also convenience: canvas / JavaScript is made for human developers,
SVG / XML is output from machines. But keeping objects for re-use in
the DOM as a memory could be an argument for developers, enhancing
accessibility at the same time.
creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force
Sam: volunteers for this task force?
<msporny_> +1 for HTML Accessibility Task Force
<msporny_> (creation of, not volunteering)
Doug: I'm interested
<kliehm> +1 (and help reviewing the wiki use cases appreciated)
Sam: I gather there's plenty of support; any against?
dsinger: I don't think actual technical discussion of accessibility
is drowning out other issues in public-html...
dsinger: and which IPR realm would it work under? [not sure I
scribed that right]
<msporny_> I don't support the process of breaking off into a
separate group either.
dsinger: there are also governance issues... would the TF be
advisory? it couldn't make binding decisions because it's not the
actual WG
<masinter> This is a HTML-WG telephone call, so I would assume it
would be a HTML-WG task force
<rubys> @masinter: joint, per
[19]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force
[19] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force
<masinter> @rubys I understand now, sorry
dsinger: I'm frustrated that process keeps coming up to the
exclusion of progress on the technical issues
MC: [missed; help?]
mjs: I think it's fine for people to get together and hash out
proposals before bringing them to the HTML WG is fine, but HTML WG
decisions need to get a healthy amount of discussion in
public-html...
mjs: also, it's not good to spend _too_ much time baking proposals,
because that can [raise social issues] too
<Zakim> msporny_, you wanted to discuss keeping AT TF on HTML WG
mailing list.
manu: I think it's fine to use the public-html mailing list [I think
I missed the gist of his point]
Cynthia: with some hesitation, I feel obliged to bring up culture
differences. I've been contacted by people who have posted to
public-html and the response seemed like a flame
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I expect it would be ok to use
the HTML list as the task force list
MC: xtech was our original proposal so as not to deluge public-html,
but perhaps public-html would work... I could discuss that with
concerned parties
... there's also a question of which tracker to use
<Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to admit he's thinking of something
similar...
<dsinger> I have discussed with a few people having an informal
get-together to talk over issues, ideas, and experiments for
audio/video accessibility. We will probably try to organize this
before the TPAC, so ideas that come up can be brought back to the
tech. meetings.
<Zakim> msporny_, you wanted to discuss expertise not being valued
(RDFa experience)
Manu: my experience is that when we engaged the HTML WG directly,
that's when the bulk of the useful feedback came. So while I'm
sympathetic to the flaming concerns, I don't think that [should be
the overriding factor?]
<dsinger> So, I am not opposed to smaller groups getting together to
discuss ideas - I am in favor!
dsinger: I'm hesitant about formalizing a task force, though I'm
fine with small groups getting together to make proposals; I'm
engaged in doing that myself with video/audio accessibility
<mjs> I think on canvas accessibility and video accessibility,
technical discussion of the issues will be much more productive
<mjs> and posting on public-html will be a great way to recruit
technical help
Action-34 authoring-guide
<MikeSmith> action-34 is not related to any of my actions
DanC: This was assigned to Lachlan for a long time; then it got
assigned to me when I wasn't here; I didn't mind too much, but it's
been a while now and I haven't made any progress and I'm not sure
when/if I will. I'm inclined to close/withdraw
close ACTION-34
<trackbot> ACTION-34 Prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for
publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference
closed
Action-106 test-suite-coordination
<MikeSmith> action-106?
<trackbot> ACTION-106 -- Dan Connolly to work out with co-chair and
staff how to spark test suite coordination next week -- due
2009-06-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/106
[20] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/106
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-106 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
DanC: I
... I'm ambivalent about keeping test suite stuff in the tracker
<scribe> ACTION: Doug look at ways to integrate test from browsers
into a WG test suite [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-134 - Look at ways to integrate test from
browsers into a WG test suite [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-08-20].
action-134 due 15 Sep
<trackbot> ACTION-134 Look at ways to integrate test from browsers
into a WG test suite due date now 15 Sep
close action-106
<trackbot> ACTION-106 Work out with co-chair and staff how to spark
test suite coordination next week closed
Action-115 TPAC-participants-signup
Sam: I'm willing to make an announcement about TPAC registration. Is
that the next step?
Mike: yes.
Sam: OK. will do.
Issue-4/Action-129 html-versioning
<masinter> action-129?
<trackbot> ACTION-129 -- Larry Masinter to insure that the
versioning discussion at least touches on XHTML 2 interactions with
the /1999/xhtml namespace -- due 2009-08-13 -- CLOSED
close action-129
<trackbot> ACTION-129 insure that the versioning discussion at least
touches on XHTML 2 interactions with the /1999/xhtml namespace
closed
<trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/129
[22] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/129
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-129 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
Clearing out cruft in the issues list
Sam: mjs suggested dispositions for a number of issues...
mjs: it was a little rushed and maybe not under the best subject
heading... I could make a more clear presentation of the suggestions
mjs: I think there's cruft in the issue tracker...
<DanC+1 a summary of why to close for each issue, please
<msporny_> +1 for cruft in the issue tracker, and support Maciej's
efforts to close items.
<dsinger> notes that if we make a mistake, it's not exactly hard to
create issues etc.
<dsinger> so as long as we close 'without prejudice' i.e. allowing
people to re-open without lots of justification, we're fine
<masinter> Is there a way of insuring that the people who raised the
issue in the first place have had a chance to respond to closing it?
<dsinger> perhaps the name of the raiser could be indicated on each
issue, in the email?
<mjs> I can Cc the originators
<dsinger> e.g. issue-314159 (raised by Mordred) should the HTML WG
kill orcs?
[discussion of mechanics]
Sam: ok, so a separate message for each message to public-html,
copied to the originator and a summary on the announce list
Heartbeat publication poll (reminder)
Sam: reminder, the poll is ongoing
<rubys> [23]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd08/
[23] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd08/
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Doug look at ways to integrate test from browsers into
a WG test suite [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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--
Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
gpg D3C2 887B 0F92 6005 C541 0875 0F91 96DE 6E52 C29E
Received on Thursday, 13 August 2009 22:07:08 UTC