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Re: ARIA use in HTML other than for accessibility.

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 06:28:42 -0500
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OF7580DC44.8CCE4E46-ON86257E38.003EBD57-86257E38.003F0DAA@us.ibm.com>

I have not looked at what they are looking to do with Semantic  Web and
ARIA but if they break accessibility interoperability with ATs that is a
huge problem.

For example, if a new role is added that is not understood by ATs, or
changes the meaning of what exists for ATs, it has the potential of
breaking accessibility.


Rich Schwerdtfeger



From:	Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
To:	Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
Cc:	HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force
            <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats"
            <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Date:	05/01/2015 06:21 AM
Subject:	Re: ARIA use in HTML other than for accessibility.



Hi Rich,

thanks for your reply, I think we may be talking at odds here,
because I was not specific enough:

I don't see a problem with other technologies making use of the information
provided via ARIA (for accessibility purposes), for more general purposes,
but the addition of ARIA semantics by developers should not be driven by
use cases other than for adding useful information about the UI to directly
aid user interaction.

Thus adding ARIA to HTML for Semantic Web purposes is a paradigm that needs
to be be actively discouraged. For example use of ARIA semantics to add
metadata for RDF processing purposes.

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1

On 1 May 2015 at 11:50, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:
  Where my head is at on this is that people should look at ARIA semantics
  to drive the user experience. At its core ARIA defines semantics for UI
  (structural, state, and properties). At IBM we have already begun to use
  it to drive the look  of user experiences. When we have meetings with IBM
  designers we are now having semantic discussions for which we can both
  talk on the same level and build user experiences that are meaningful. If
  we start with ARIA semantics we can use it to drive the style of the UI
  and reducing the amount of JavaScript. This is becoming increasingly
  important for mobile.

  We are also crossing the line between what is for accessibility and what
  is not. ARIA is becoming a curb cut for user experiences. We are looking
  at digital semantics for digital books, drawings, etc. If we are
  successful with ARIA semantics for books we can use it to drive UIs like
  every user being able to say: "Go to the glossary."

  This is what I mean by it is being used by more than just accessibility.



  Rich

  Rich Schwerdtfeger

  Inactive hide details for Steve Faulkner ---05/01/2015 04:13:34
  AM---Note: have ccd HTML a11y taskforce and PF, but please replSteve
  Faulkner ---05/01/2015 04:13:34 AM---Note: have ccd HTML a11y taskforce
  and PF, but please reply to HTML WG list so a broader audience ca

  From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
  To: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
  Cc: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, "W3C WAI
  Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
  Date: 05/01/2015 04:13 AM
  Subject: ARIA use in HTML other than for accessibility.




  Note: have ccd HTML a11y taskforce and PF, but please reply to HTML WG
  list so a broader audience can read and contribute.

  Hi all,

  There is some discussion  going on currently about the uses of ARIA for
  cases other than accessibility.

  My understanding in the context of HTML is that ARIA is to be used to
  allow web developers to assign semantics to HTML content in order to make
  it understandable to assistive technology users. And that it should only
  be used when HTML features do not have this information baked in or
  developers are building custom UI. Hence my formulation of the First
  [informative] rule of ARIA [1] and the conformance requirements on ARIA
  in HTML [4]

  The ARIA 1.1 spec appears to align with this view:
        These semantics are designed to allow an author to properly convey
        user interface behaviors and structural information to assistive
        technologies in document-level markup.

   So I was somewhat surprised to see a tweet [3] yesterday from Rich
  Schwerdtfeger:
        ARIA is providing more semantics than host languages and it is
        growing. Developers and Designers would be foolish to limit its use
        to a11y.


  I see problems arising from the use of ARIA in HTML for purposes other
  than UI accessibility including:

  * Conflict with native HTML accessibility semantics
  * Unnecessary cruft build up in the corpus of HTML documents due to its
  extended use.
  * Dilution of its relationship to accessibility APIs semantics and
  increase in complexity of an already complex vocabulary.

  I would really think there is a need for this stuff to be more thoroughly
  discussed, especially in relation to ARIA use in HTML as a host language.


  Review at your leasure, comment at will.

  [1] http://w3c.github.io/aria-in-html/#first-rule-of-aria-use
  [2] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#h-abstract
  [3] https://twitter.com/rschwer/status/593758137989013504
  [4] http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/



  --

  Regards

  SteveF
  HTML 5.1













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Received on Friday, 1 May 2015 11:29:16 UTC

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