- From: Leif H Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
- Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 19:52:20 +0200
- To: chaals@yandex-team.ru
- Cc: singer@apple.com, public-html-a11y@w3.org
In my little experience, screenreaders operate more slowly than the naked browser. Also, because it opens (typically) a new window (more slowly than in a naked browser), I would listen very attentively if someone in the know say that the massive bad use make them ignore opening long descriptions. Leif ------- Opprinnelig melding ------- > Fra: Charles McCathie Nevile <chaals@yandex-team.ru> > Til: singer@apple.com > Cc: public-html-a11y@w3.org > Sendt: 21/9/'12, 18:53 > > On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:03:39 +0200, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote: > >> >> On Sep 21, 2012, at 7:03 , Charles McCathie Nevile >> <chaals@yandex-team.ru> wrote: >> >>> TL;DR: I believe the "longdesc lottery" conclusion that a lot of >>> longdescs were hopelessly bad, and that longdesc is often terrible >>> in top-X sites. >>> It roughly matches my research (and my expectations). I expect serious >>> careful research to show things getting better. I do not believe that >>> data justifies the conclusion "so longdesc is broken and should be >>> removed". >> >> But… >> >> a) why would anyone now implement longdesc knowing that the descriptions >> that they'd expose to users were, for the vast majority, 'hopelessly >> bad'? > > 1. It's really quite easy. > 2. I believe the situation was *worse* when JAWS implemented it, and I > presume their rationale was user demand. They're not noted for randomly > implementing things on a proactive basis... > >> b) why would any end user needing more information bother to look at the >> longdesc, knowing that the overwhelming majority of the time, they'd be >> wasting their time getting something hopelessly bad? > > Because the price of discovering something pointless and skipping it is > low, and the value of finding something really helpful is extremely high. > It's the same rationale I use for email - despite a lot of spam, the > content makes it worth having email services. > >>> And most developers are apparently not true believers, >>> don't *test* the long descriptions they make. >> >> Right, we've had long discussions on having features that are hidden >> from ordinary users -- and hence, from most web developers. > > These are separate issues. > > The hidden metadata problem is real, and increases the chance that a given > longdesc (or alt, for that matter) will not be very good. > > But not having an implementation to test with significantly increases this > problem, because it makes it difficult to develop a workflow that > incorporates a useful test - something that many professional developers > can do that resolves the "I didn't see the problem in casual observation > so I won't worry about it" problem which makes hidden metadata unreliable. > > I *believe* (without careful research) that developers' use of iCab is > roughly in line with general usage, and testing with Opera is a relatively > small multiple if general usage, while testing with screen readers is a > fraction of normal usage. > >>> I note 15 years ago when I began working seriously in accessibility, the >>> alt attribute was something people generally thought was unreasonable, >>> couldn't be done, was almost always missing, and when it was present it >>> was almost always done so badly as to be a waste of time. I would >>> characterise the situation now as about 10 times as good - maybe a >>> majority of people accept it as a good idea, it is often present, and in >>> many cases it isn't useless (although I honestly doubt that good use of >>> alt has become the statistical norm, the almost 2 decades since it was >>> introduced have seen significant improvement). >> >> >> Is that perhaps because of ordinary browsers exposing it during hover, >> do you think? > > Partially. When that used to happen it was certainly a cause of all sorts > of rubbish being put into alt. But the improvements were not only related > to getting rid of that behaviour, but also a general improvement in > developers' understanding and knowledge. > > cheers > > Chaals >
Received on Friday, 21 September 2012 17:53:18 UTC