Re: Minutes HTML A11Y TF 12 May 2011

hi laura,

>The notitle proposal still seems to be changing after the TF
>resolution. So what is meant by a "stabilized" proposal?

no substantive changes have been made and I do not intend to make any,
they were minor editorial fixes.

I added the text "new information" to  some of the headings in response to a
remark made by  paul cotton yesterday, that he could not find the new
information.
I changed the order of words in one of the headings so it made more sense.

I will not be making any more changes, unless someone points out a
grammatical or spelling error.

regards
stevef

On 13 May 2011 12:31, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/12/11, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Steve, Judy and all,
> >
> > It seems like there was some discussion regarding stabilizing
> > proposals at today's meeting.
> Hi all,
>
> >> *RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change
> >> proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and
> >> recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG*
> >
> > Is
> > http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
> > a stabilized proposal?
>
> Last change was 08:49, 13 May 2011 Sfaulkne
>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/notitle&action=history
>
> The notitle proposal still seems to be changing after the TF
> resolution. So what is meant by a "stabilized" proposal?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Best Regards,
> Laura
>
> > Last change was 12:42, 12 May 2011
> >
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc&action=history
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Laura
> >
> > On 5/12/11, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org> wrote:
> >> Minutes of the 12 May 2011 HTML Accessibility Task Force meeting are
> >> posted to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html and
> copied
> >> below.
> >>
> >>
> >>   HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
> >>
> >>
> >>     12 May 2011
> >>
> >> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-irc>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Attendees
> >>
> >> Present
> >>     Michael_Cooper, JF, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith,
> >>     paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Eric, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
> >> Regrets
> >> Chair
> >>     Janina_Sajka
> >> Scribe
> >>     MichaelC
> >>
> >>
> >>     Contents
> >>
> >>     * Topics <
> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
> >>          1. Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
> >>             <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item01
> >
> >>          2. Text Subteam Issues
> >>             http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
> >>             <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item02
> >
> >>          3. Next week
> >>             <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03
> >
> >>     * Summary of Action Items
> >>       <
> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2011
> >>
> >> <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
> >>
> >> <janina> agenda: this
> >>
> >> <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
> >>
> >> <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/EnTitle
> >>
> >> <mranon> zackim, P7 is me
> >>
> >> <scribe> scribe: MichaelC
> >>
> >> <scribe> chair: Janina_Sajka
> >>
> >> jf: multitrack mostly wrapped up
> >>
> >>
> >>       Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
> >>
> >> == media ==
> >>
> >> discussion ongoing about text alternatives for video element
> >>
> >> js: request for stable URI for <missed>
> >>
> >> also need to work on navigational concerns
> >>
> >> == canvas ==
> >>
> >> <nobody present>
> >>
> >> == bug triage ==
> >>
> >> mr: bug triage processed pending tf decision bugs this week
> >>
> >> gave a few the a11ytf keyword, not many
> >>
> >> gave rationales for each
> >>
> >> no major highlights
> >>
> >> == ARIA mapping ==
> >>
> >> cs: first discussion about HTML API map document just before this call
> >>
> >> lots of work to do
> >>
> >> have identified starter points
> >>
> >> js: that meets just before this call?
> >>
> >> cs: yes, for now
> >>
> >> js: need help?
> >>
> >> cs: yes
> >>
> >> splitting time between HTML API map, and ARIA API map
> >>
> >> js: good, looking to publish HTML implementation guide in June
> >>
> >>
> >>       Text Subteam Issues
> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
> >>
> >> <judy> Text Alternatives Sub-Team -- recent meeting:
> >> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
> >>
> >> jb: 7-8 issues on the table
> >>
> >> <lists too fast to scribe>
> >>
> >> jf: re meta name = generator
> >>
> >> <JF>
> >>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name=generator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming
> >>
> >> leif has done a lot of work
> >>
> >> creating a change proposal in wiki
> >>
> >> still work to do
> >>
> >> <Stevef> rich will try to join later
> >>
> >> jb: expect work in near future?
> >>
> >> jf: yes, but more to do in wiki
> >>
> >> jb: role=presentation
> >>
> >> being dealt with by bugs
> >>
> >> cs: talked with Rich, think ok to allow null alt as equivalent to
> >> role=presentation
> >>
> >> concern about case in which there is non-null alt plus role=presentation
> >>
> >> author doesn't know what they're doing in this case
> >>
> >> talked with david singer
> >>
> >> <JF> +q
> >>
> >> since this doesn't truly break anything, think it's a validation warning
> >> / accessibility evaluation issue
> >>
> >> not a validator error
> >>
> >> jb: need to check support for this?
> >> ... over to Steve for title
> >>
> >> Leif making a case
> >>
> >> sf: he has made a change proposal, discussion going on
> >>
> >> jb: ready for discussion within tf?
> >>
> >> sf: yes
> >>
> >> jb: figcaption
> >>
> >> would like to take off urgent track
> >>
> >> recognize not everyone wants to do that, but many do
> >>
> >> cs: taking off urgent track is good
> >>
> >> jb: longdesc
> >>
> >> were looking for a stablized proposal from Laura
> >>
> >> kept getting additional suggestions
> >>
> >> want to do consensus check on proposal as it stands at the moment
> >>
> >> jb: poster alt
> >>
> >> jf: being discussed in media subteam
> >>
> >> alternative text for paused video
> >>
> >> same problem from different angle
> >>
> >> active discussion, strong divide in opinion
> >>
> >> there is [candidate?] formal objection to chair decision on poster alt
> >>
> >> not pursuing further at moment
> >>
> >> jb: table summary
> >>
> >> gregory working on, but out this week
> >>
> >> probably taking off urgent path
> >>
> >> jb: location of alt guidance
> >>
> >> clear disagreement with HTML WG decision
> >>
> >> probably will address on non-urgent basis
> >>
> >> jb: for today: 1) alt validation title 2) longdesc
> >>
> >> but first, bug support issue
> >>
> >> cs: role=presentation we meant not to impact alt requirements
> >>
> >> but after discussion we view as not a big deal
> >>
> >> do we need to push more?
> >>
> >> jf: if <img src=foo alt=important role=presentation> which wins?
> >>
> >> cs: role=presentation wins
> >>
> >> but it's author error
> >>
> >> from a validation perspective it's allowed
> >>
> >> might be a warning
> >>
> >> note validator doesn't know if alt is important
> >>
> >> changing requirements won't affect prevalence of this kind of error
> >>
> >> topic under discussion was expanding things could be given name, not
> >> restricting alt
> >>
> >> js: leif noted this could be used to hide ascii art
> >>
> >> cs: not sure ascii art in alt would work...
> >>
> >> can see cases where having both alt and role makes sense
> >>
> >> can't flag every case, if it makes sense sometimes
> >>
> >> so would have to look for non-null string, which makes validation quite
> >> complex
> >>
> >> therefore moves into warning territory
> >>
> >> jf: agree sounds like warning
> >>
> >> but important to capture the point
> >>
> >> js: proposal to file bug
> >>
> >> cs: having warning gives a hook
> >>
> >> jb: sounds like this is execution of action for CS and RS to discuss
> >>
> >> still needs to come back into text sub-team
> >>
> >> not consensus there yet, needs further discussion
> >>
> >> cs: worried about differing from WAI CG consensus document, because of
> >> perception of flip-flopping
> >>
> >> jb: need further conversation on that
> >>
> >> group yesterday considered new info
> >>
> >> Monday seemed pretty strong consensus on a proposal except for Leif
> >>
> >> jb: moving on to title
> >>
> >> cs: ok with either there
> >>
> >> <LeifHSilli> Just want to note the question I consider most important:
> >> Does e.g. @aria-labelledby=foo win over empty @alt=""? If empty @alt
> >> equals role=presentation, then empty @alt should win. However, ARIA says
> >> that aria-labelledby wins. See
> >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0290
> >>
> >> sf: Leif and I disagreed on what was meant by device independence
> >>
> >> <something about input devices>
> >>
> >> asked vendors, got inconclusive responses
> >>
> >> looked at Webkit, when @title and not(@alt) it falls back to title
> >>
> >> but title shouldn't be a repair mechanism, it should be a visible
> caption
> >>
> >> or at least available to all, not to some people some times
> >>
> >> <JF> +1 to Steve
> >>
> >> no requirement in HTML 5 that content be available in input device
> >> independent manner
> >>
> >> filed a bug a year ago
> >>
> >> was rejected
> >>
> >> <re needing mouse to display title>
> >>
> >> jb: questions?
> >>
> >> objections to supporting proposal?
> >>
> >> <janina> +1
> >>
> >> <mranon> +1
> >>
> >> <judy> please indicate in IRC who is supporting Steve's title proposal
> >>
> >> <janina> +1
> >>
> >> <mranon> +1
> >>
> >> <judy> +1
> >>
> >> <JF> +1 to steves proposal
> >>
> >> rs: what are problems viewed with Leif's proposal?
> >>
> >> sf: about accessible name property in AAPIs
> >>
> >> <paulc> Where is Steve's proposal? Link please.
> >>
> >> <janina> Referenced in the agenda for today ...
> >>
> >> main diff from my proposal is that title used as fallback to alt
> >>
> >> rs: that's just webkit, right?
> >>
> >> <paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
> >>
> >> sf: don't want to promote that approach
> >>
> >> rs: clarification?
> >>
> >> sf: my proposal says title and alt should not be displayed in same way
> >>
> >> rs: title used specifically for tooltip on mouseover
> >>
> >> advisory text
> >>
> >> <JF> +q to this topic
> >>
> >> <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title
> >> as last resort http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation
> >>
> >> mc: ARIA allows title as last resort
> >>
> >> sf: yes for accessible name
> >>
> >> but shouldn't impact graphical rendering
> >>
> >> jf: there's an issue of conventional behaviors vs specified behaviors
> >>
> >> lots of screen readers by default ignore title
> >>
> >> because of redundancy with alt in legacy content
> >>
> >> because back in the day @alt wasn't rendered to tooltip so authors put
> >> in both places
> >>
> >> jb: any change in support for Steve's proposal after this discussion?
> >>
> >> rs: support
> >>
> >> my understanding is Leif's is to have @title rendered when images turned
> >> off
> >>
> >> that's not something I support
> >>
> >> important to separate functionality of alt and title
> >>
> >> jb: proposing change?
> >>
> >> <JF> akc JF
> >>
> >> rs: supporting Steve's
> >>
> >> <Zakim> JF, you wanted to this topic
> >>
> >> <richardschwerdtfe> I support Steve Faulkner's proposal
> >>
> >> <richardschwerdtfe> on title
> >>
> >> pc: note Leif not here
> >>
> >> js: was on Monday, other discussions
> >>
> >> pc: proposal has a number of "new information"
> >>
> >> is there a companion rationale to reopen decision?
> >>
> >> <judy> Leif, do you at this point object to Steve's proposal on title?
> >>
> >> jb: embedded, think Sam's reviewed
> >>
> >> sf: rationale is that there is new info
> >>
> >> jb: pinging Leif, no response yet, but did discuss Monday that we'd look
> >> for consensus but not necessarily unanimity
> >>
> >> at moment think we have that
> >>
> >> suggest we declare TF consensus
> >>
> >> js: think we have that now
> >>
> >> were specific that the question would be called in this call
> >>
> >> <paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
> >>
> >> *RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change
> >> proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and
> >> recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG*
> >>
> >> jb: moving back to longdesc
> >>
> >> pc: trying to understand goal at the moment
> >>
> >> current proposal being constantly updated
> >>
> >> <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
> >> updated on may 12
> >>
> >> <judy> ===== longdesc =====
> >>
> >> <judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
> >>
> >> change proposals not necessarily expected to be static
> >>
> >> it's before the WG now
> >>
> >> <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-030
> >>
> >> chairs track these things at above link
> >>
> >> jb: we've requested Laura to stabilize this
> >>
> >> she asked for consensus, got additional suggestions, so has continued to
> >> change
> >>
> >> so put on agenda here to measure support from task force
> >>
> >> who supports Laura's proposal as is right now?
> >>
> >> <JF> +q
> >>
> >> no responses, is the issue that it's still changing?
> >>
> >> jf: conditionally I support, but need to finish fine-tuning
> >>
> >> want to see final version
> >>
> >> same
> >>
> >> <JF> +1 to Rich's comments
> >>
> >> think we're arriving at something that adds value to all users
> >>
> >> jb: sounds like we can't call question on TF support until it stabilizes
> >>
> >> to PC, what is process expectation?
> >>
> >> pc: Sam & I will be at AC meeting next week, but both on travel so
> >> jetlag...
> >>
> >> hope to respond within 3-4 days to reopen requests, but difficult next
> >> week
> >>
> >> will enter our queue
> >>
> >> jb: that's just regarding making decision whether or not to reopen?
> >>
> >> pc: yes
> >>
> >> though we have already started discussing this
> >>
> >> and have meeting next Tuesday morning CEST
> >>
> >> <JF> bye all
> >>
> >> <MikeSmith> yep
> >>
> >> <MikeSmith> wi
> >>
> >> <MikeSmith> will be
> >>
> >>
> >>       Next week
> >>
> >> Mike to chair, Steve to scribe
> >>
> >> trackbot, end meeting
> >>
> >>
> >>     Summary of Action Items
> >>
> >> [End of minutes]
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl
> >> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>
> >> version 1.136 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
> >> $Date: 2011/05/12 16:05:32 $
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Michael Cooper
> >> Web Accessibility Specialist
> >> World Wide Web Consortium, Web Accessibility Initiative
> >> E-mail cooper@w3.org <mailto:cooper@w3.org>
> >> Information Page <http://www.w3.org/People/cooper/>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Laura L. Carlson
> >
>
>
> --
> Laura L. Carlson
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
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dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
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