- From: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
- Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 06:31:33 -0500
- To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>
On 5/12/11, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Steve, Judy and all, > > It seems like there was some discussion regarding stabilizing > proposals at today's meeting. Hi all, >> *RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change >> proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and >> recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG* > > Is > http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle > a stabilized proposal? Last change was 08:49, 13 May 2011 Sfaulkne http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/notitle&action=history The notitle proposal still seems to be changing after the TF resolution. So what is meant by a "stabilized" proposal? Thanks. Best Regards, Laura > Last change was 12:42, 12 May 2011 > http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc&action=history > > Thanks. > > Best Regards, > > Laura > > On 5/12/11, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org> wrote: >> Minutes of the 12 May 2011 HTML Accessibility Task Force meeting are >> posted to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html and copied >> below. >> >> >> HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference >> >> >> 12 May 2011 >> >> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-irc> >> >> >> Attendees >> >> Present >> Michael_Cooper, JF, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith, >> paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Eric, Rich_Schwerdtfeger >> Regrets >> Chair >> Janina_Sajka >> Scribe >> MichaelC >> >> >> Contents >> >> * Topics <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#agenda> >> 1. Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage >> <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item01> >> 2. Text Subteam Issues >> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html >> <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item02> >> 3. Next week >> <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03> >> * Summary of Action Items >> <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2011 >> >> <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon >> >> <janina> agenda: this >> >> <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List >> >> <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/EnTitle >> >> <mranon> zackim, P7 is me >> >> <scribe> scribe: MichaelC >> >> <scribe> chair: Janina_Sajka >> >> jf: multitrack mostly wrapped up >> >> >> Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage >> >> == media == >> >> discussion ongoing about text alternatives for video element >> >> js: request for stable URI for <missed> >> >> also need to work on navigational concerns >> >> == canvas == >> >> <nobody present> >> >> == bug triage == >> >> mr: bug triage processed pending tf decision bugs this week >> >> gave a few the a11ytf keyword, not many >> >> gave rationales for each >> >> no major highlights >> >> == ARIA mapping == >> >> cs: first discussion about HTML API map document just before this call >> >> lots of work to do >> >> have identified starter points >> >> js: that meets just before this call? >> >> cs: yes, for now >> >> js: need help? >> >> cs: yes >> >> splitting time between HTML API map, and ARIA API map >> >> js: good, looking to publish HTML implementation guide in June >> >> >> Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html >> >> <judy> Text Alternatives Sub-Team -- recent meeting: >> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html >> >> jb: 7-8 issues on the table >> >> <lists too fast to scribe> >> >> jf: re meta name = generator >> >> <JF> >> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name=generator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming >> >> leif has done a lot of work >> >> creating a change proposal in wiki >> >> still work to do >> >> <Stevef> rich will try to join later >> >> jb: expect work in near future? >> >> jf: yes, but more to do in wiki >> >> jb: role=presentation >> >> being dealt with by bugs >> >> cs: talked with Rich, think ok to allow null alt as equivalent to >> role=presentation >> >> concern about case in which there is non-null alt plus role=presentation >> >> author doesn't know what they're doing in this case >> >> talked with david singer >> >> <JF> +q >> >> since this doesn't truly break anything, think it's a validation warning >> / accessibility evaluation issue >> >> not a validator error >> >> jb: need to check support for this? >> ... over to Steve for title >> >> Leif making a case >> >> sf: he has made a change proposal, discussion going on >> >> jb: ready for discussion within tf? >> >> sf: yes >> >> jb: figcaption >> >> would like to take off urgent track >> >> recognize not everyone wants to do that, but many do >> >> cs: taking off urgent track is good >> >> jb: longdesc >> >> were looking for a stablized proposal from Laura >> >> kept getting additional suggestions >> >> want to do consensus check on proposal as it stands at the moment >> >> jb: poster alt >> >> jf: being discussed in media subteam >> >> alternative text for paused video >> >> same problem from different angle >> >> active discussion, strong divide in opinion >> >> there is [candidate?] formal objection to chair decision on poster alt >> >> not pursuing further at moment >> >> jb: table summary >> >> gregory working on, but out this week >> >> probably taking off urgent path >> >> jb: location of alt guidance >> >> clear disagreement with HTML WG decision >> >> probably will address on non-urgent basis >> >> jb: for today: 1) alt validation title 2) longdesc >> >> but first, bug support issue >> >> cs: role=presentation we meant not to impact alt requirements >> >> but after discussion we view as not a big deal >> >> do we need to push more? >> >> jf: if <img src=foo alt=important role=presentation> which wins? >> >> cs: role=presentation wins >> >> but it's author error >> >> from a validation perspective it's allowed >> >> might be a warning >> >> note validator doesn't know if alt is important >> >> changing requirements won't affect prevalence of this kind of error >> >> topic under discussion was expanding things could be given name, not >> restricting alt >> >> js: leif noted this could be used to hide ascii art >> >> cs: not sure ascii art in alt would work... >> >> can see cases where having both alt and role makes sense >> >> can't flag every case, if it makes sense sometimes >> >> so would have to look for non-null string, which makes validation quite >> complex >> >> therefore moves into warning territory >> >> jf: agree sounds like warning >> >> but important to capture the point >> >> js: proposal to file bug >> >> cs: having warning gives a hook >> >> jb: sounds like this is execution of action for CS and RS to discuss >> >> still needs to come back into text sub-team >> >> not consensus there yet, needs further discussion >> >> cs: worried about differing from WAI CG consensus document, because of >> perception of flip-flopping >> >> jb: need further conversation on that >> >> group yesterday considered new info >> >> Monday seemed pretty strong consensus on a proposal except for Leif >> >> jb: moving on to title >> >> cs: ok with either there >> >> <LeifHSilli> Just want to note the question I consider most important: >> Does e.g. @aria-labelledby=foo win over empty @alt=""? If empty @alt >> equals role=presentation, then empty @alt should win. However, ARIA says >> that aria-labelledby wins. See >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0290 >> >> sf: Leif and I disagreed on what was meant by device independence >> >> <something about input devices> >> >> asked vendors, got inconclusive responses >> >> looked at Webkit, when @title and not(@alt) it falls back to title >> >> but title shouldn't be a repair mechanism, it should be a visible caption >> >> or at least available to all, not to some people some times >> >> <JF> +1 to Steve >> >> no requirement in HTML 5 that content be available in input device >> independent manner >> >> filed a bug a year ago >> >> was rejected >> >> <re needing mouse to display title> >> >> jb: questions? >> >> objections to supporting proposal? >> >> <janina> +1 >> >> <mranon> +1 >> >> <judy> please indicate in IRC who is supporting Steve's title proposal >> >> <janina> +1 >> >> <mranon> +1 >> >> <judy> +1 >> >> <JF> +1 to steves proposal >> >> rs: what are problems viewed with Leif's proposal? >> >> sf: about accessible name property in AAPIs >> >> <paulc> Where is Steve's proposal? Link please. >> >> <janina> Referenced in the agenda for today ... >> >> main diff from my proposal is that title used as fallback to alt >> >> rs: that's just webkit, right? >> >> <paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle >> >> sf: don't want to promote that approach >> >> rs: clarification? >> >> sf: my proposal says title and alt should not be displayed in same way >> >> rs: title used specifically for tooltip on mouseover >> >> advisory text >> >> <JF> +q to this topic >> >> <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title >> as last resort http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation >> >> mc: ARIA allows title as last resort >> >> sf: yes for accessible name >> >> but shouldn't impact graphical rendering >> >> jf: there's an issue of conventional behaviors vs specified behaviors >> >> lots of screen readers by default ignore title >> >> because of redundancy with alt in legacy content >> >> because back in the day @alt wasn't rendered to tooltip so authors put >> in both places >> >> jb: any change in support for Steve's proposal after this discussion? >> >> rs: support >> >> my understanding is Leif's is to have @title rendered when images turned >> off >> >> that's not something I support >> >> important to separate functionality of alt and title >> >> jb: proposing change? >> >> <JF> akc JF >> >> rs: supporting Steve's >> >> <Zakim> JF, you wanted to this topic >> >> <richardschwerdtfe> I support Steve Faulkner's proposal >> >> <richardschwerdtfe> on title >> >> pc: note Leif not here >> >> js: was on Monday, other discussions >> >> pc: proposal has a number of "new information" >> >> is there a companion rationale to reopen decision? >> >> <judy> Leif, do you at this point object to Steve's proposal on title? >> >> jb: embedded, think Sam's reviewed >> >> sf: rationale is that there is new info >> >> jb: pinging Leif, no response yet, but did discuss Monday that we'd look >> for consensus but not necessarily unanimity >> >> at moment think we have that >> >> suggest we declare TF consensus >> >> js: think we have that now >> >> were specific that the question would be called in this call >> >> <paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle >> >> *RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change >> proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and >> recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG* >> >> jb: moving back to longdesc >> >> pc: trying to understand goal at the moment >> >> current proposal being constantly updated >> >> <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc >> updated on may 12 >> >> <judy> ===== longdesc ===== >> >> <judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc >> >> change proposals not necessarily expected to be static >> >> it's before the WG now >> >> <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-030 >> >> chairs track these things at above link >> >> jb: we've requested Laura to stabilize this >> >> she asked for consensus, got additional suggestions, so has continued to >> change >> >> so put on agenda here to measure support from task force >> >> who supports Laura's proposal as is right now? >> >> <JF> +q >> >> no responses, is the issue that it's still changing? >> >> jf: conditionally I support, but need to finish fine-tuning >> >> want to see final version >> >> same >> >> <JF> +1 to Rich's comments >> >> think we're arriving at something that adds value to all users >> >> jb: sounds like we can't call question on TF support until it stabilizes >> >> to PC, what is process expectation? >> >> pc: Sam & I will be at AC meeting next week, but both on travel so >> jetlag... >> >> hope to respond within 3-4 days to reopen requests, but difficult next >> week >> >> will enter our queue >> >> jb: that's just regarding making decision whether or not to reopen? >> >> pc: yes >> >> though we have already started discussing this >> >> and have meeting next Tuesday morning CEST >> >> <JF> bye all >> >> <MikeSmith> yep >> >> <MikeSmith> wi >> >> <MikeSmith> will be >> >> >> Next week >> >> Mike to chair, Steve to scribe >> >> trackbot, end meeting >> >> >> Summary of Action Items >> >> [End of minutes] >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl >> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> >> version 1.136 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>) >> $Date: 2011/05/12 16:05:32 $ >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Cooper >> Web Accessibility Specialist >> World Wide Web Consortium, Web Accessibility Initiative >> E-mail cooper@w3.org <mailto:cooper@w3.org> >> Information Page <http://www.w3.org/People/cooper/> >> >> > > > -- > Laura L. Carlson > -- Laura L. Carlson
Received on Friday, 13 May 2011 11:32:02 UTC